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Post by shan on Jul 1, 2019 5:32:13 GMT -6
Colt45
Thanks for your reply. I'm presuming your advocating a North/South flow to the battle here, with E troop moving off Cemetery ridge rather than L.S.H. Now whilst I'm somewhat sympathetic to the movement off Cemetery ridge; I simply can't see men running all the way unhindered in that heat and that distance from L.S.H. I'm afraid can't really go with a North/South flow.
The bulk of the Indian evidence indicates the reverse, with them driving the soldiers from Findley to Calhoun, and then, with many of those men trying to flee, moving on down into the valley behind battle ridge, where they destroyed I troop, leaving the few survivors to try to make towards last stand hill where they could just about make out what was left of the other wing.
Shan
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Post by Colt45 on Jul 1, 2019 6:11:01 GMT -6
There was plenty of archeological evidence showing fighting beyond LSH, down BRE. There were troop positions and Indian positions, indicating that troops were in the BRE positions first, then moved away to the south, giving the ground to the Indians. I also stated earlier that I too didn't see E company running from LSH.
The north to south battle flow was during the retrograde from ford D back up toward LSH and Calhoun Hill. Up until ford D, all the flow was south to north. The Indians driving men from FFR to Calhoun came after C company was stopped. Remember the Indian accounts also talk of soldiers charging down from Calhoun hill into the coulee. You have to look at the overall action, not just bits and pieces.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 1, 2019 7:30:28 GMT -6
Shan, to show what Colt refers to as fighting beyond LSH, here is a finds map of the area. You can see how the new park road runs right across this area and many other finds would have lost due to this work and the building of the cemetery. Yan
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Post by shan on Jul 1, 2019 7:37:30 GMT -6
I accept what you say about the fighting North of LSH, and that one could say that the troops moved South as they gave way to the Indians, but look, one of the problems facing anyone wishing to write about this battle, is that we have to do it in a linear fashion, i.e. one thing happened after another, when in effect, especially towards the end of the battle, several things were all happening at the same time.
Thus, I suspect that when Custer was up on Cemetery ridge, he would have been only too aware that something momentous was happening down towards the Calhoun area, and that even had the event been shrouded by gun smoke and dust, the sheer volume of firing, plus the noise being made by Indians riding around would have told him that at the very least, things had heated up considerably since he had left. Likewise, some of those fleeing from the Calhoun area would have been aware of an increase in firing coming from further up the ridge, and may even have caught a glimpse of Custer's command as it too began its move towards L.S.H. The same could be said of some of those trying to flee the Keogh sector, whilst some of the men arriving up on L.S.H. would have probably become aware that a disaster was unfolding before their eyes off towards the South.
Of course these would have been only momentary glimpses, because in each case, the person, or people involved would have been caught up in what was happening around them.
Shan
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 1, 2019 12:52:00 GMT -6
Do you think that Custer rode all the way from Reno creek to Calhoun hill, only to give up the ghost?
Custer had momentum and speed to his advance, he knew that a major battle was happening in the valley and the men involved were from his regiment, so why would he reach Calhoun hill and go on the defensive and leave these men to fight it out without his help.
Because that is what he did if he left around 120 men behind to guard a ridge line. You might think that he did this so he could go on a recce mission further north, what for! To find a nice crossing place so he could then go back and bring forward the 120 he left behind, Reno could still be fighting you know and still waiting for his promised support.
I could be wrong and you may be one of those who think that he was forced back from ford B only to succumb on LSH, while detaching companies to halt the Indians surge up deep coulee, but as far as I know there is no evidence of any action at ford B, in fact the Indians themselves say that the soldiers never reached the river.
But it is all down to what tribe you believe as a lot of the Sioux arrived after Custer had been battling with the Cheyenne’s and that a lot of maneuvering had already took place before the bulk of the Sioux got back from the Reno fight.
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Post by shan on Jul 1, 2019 14:54:45 GMT -6
Yan,
thanks for that map, I've never seen it before, and all I can say that if it is accurate and refers to genuine finds, the I for one will have to rethink what was going on up there. For instance, does the map reflect fighting that was going on as he moved on down towards the fords D, or maybe as he pulled back, or both? Or, is it indicative of his having placed part of his force further North before it collapsed back to LSH?
One last question, did I go to sleep for the last ten years or so, while you've all been discussing this, or is a relatively new find?
Shan
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Post by noggy on Jul 2, 2019 3:16:33 GMT -6
Shan, to show what Colt refers to as fighting beyond LSH, here is a finds map of the area. You can see how the new park road runs right across this area and many other finds would have lost due to this work and the building of the cemetery. Yan Hi Ian, where is this map from? Geir
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 2, 2019 4:59:51 GMT -6
Hi Geir, I think AZ posted on the blue board, it looks like he has scanned the image straight from a book.
Yan
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 2, 2019 5:13:33 GMT -6
Hi Shan, you are welcome to the map, all in the aid of research, as the old saying goes ‘data that is not shared is data that is lost’
The idea of Custer going forward past LSH, with all five companies has been debated for the last two years on the blue board.
Gordon Harper may have touched upon it too, although I think that the folks who have read his book should comment on that.
Then you have the John Stands in Timber map drawn with Wolftooth actually on the battlefield, Wolftooth was involved in the battle and told to tale to JSIT without the aid of a translator.
But what gets me is, why would a fighter like Custer suddenly go from being on the attack, to one of defense and recon, can you really think that Custer would leave almost the same amount of troopers that he gave to Benteen, to sit about on a ridge line whist the rest of his regiment fought against the largest Indian village ever saw? All they would do was to draw every Indian in the area to battle ridge, why? The fight was more north, battle ridge was insignificant once the soldiers had moved off it.
The problem we have is Indian accounts, the Cheyenne tell of fighting and maneuvering in which they were waiting in the rushes to fire on the soldiers as they got close to the river, the Sioux talk of Soldiers on a ridge fighting in lines and such, because they arrived late after the Reno battle, and by then the circumstances could have changed and they saw the soldier stopped on battle ridge.
Yan
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Post by herosrest on Jul 2, 2019 8:48:43 GMT -6
There was plenty of archeological evidence showing fighting beyond LSH, down BRE. There were troop positions and Indian positions, indicating that troops were in the BRE positions first, then moved away to the south, giving the ground to the Indians. I also stated earlier that I too didn't see E company running from LSH. The north to south battle flow was during the retrograde from ford D back up toward LSH and Calhoun Hill. Up until ford D, all the flow was south to north. The Indians driving men from FFR to Calhoun came after C company was stopped. Remember the Indian accounts also talk of soldiers charging down from Calhoun hill into the coulee. You have to look at the overall action, not just bits and pieces. I'm wondering how you see Company I reaching the swale kill site? My thought is to do with 'Indian accounts of soldiers charging down from Calhoun hill into the coulee'. Does or should that apply to Keogh's company?
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Post by herosrest on Jul 2, 2019 9:02:25 GMT -6
Shan, to show what Colt refers to as fighting beyond LSH, here is a finds map of the area. You can see how the new park road runs right across this area and many other finds would have lost due to this work and the building of the cemetery. View AttachmentYan This map has been discussed elsewhere and it is spurious. I believe it to have originated with Donahue in early work published by CBHMA for symposium or Greasy Grass magazine and probably from the mid 1990's. In considering this data, ask why no one in the past twenty and more years has been aware of this information. Some 800-1,000 were found over decades by Blummer, Luce, Cartwright, Weibert, Rickey and others but at the other end of the battle on the Luce, NC and Deep Coulee terrain. The map is not even worthwhile as a thinking piece and is entire fantasy. The context of the article of which it is a part, should be scanned and offered with the map. You would not be able to shut Richard A. Fox up if such relics had been discovered. This matter of spurious matters cropped up elsewhere Advance party and new markers In the 1970's Greene plotted all artifact finds to aerial terrain maps of the battlefield. This method was then surerceded by early CAD applications and is being upgraded again in recent years with efforts by the NPS who were hiring in recent years and interns at CBHMA. The American Surveyor 2009 article. A GIS for the Little Bighorn Battlefield National Monument Major Christopher Benson, Assistant Professor United States Air Force Academy, Colorado circa 2000.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 2, 2019 12:21:26 GMT -6
Well you can take it up with the originator, as this map has been up before and I just added it to the discussion, if it is fake well I can easily take it down, shall I ?
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Post by herosrest on Jul 3, 2019 6:13:28 GMT -6
I am not a censor and offer the caution. It's an important matter to mispresent. Assume, since you don't know, that the data is false...... omg. What' gives?
That simple. The data is completely unsubstantiated and cannot be verified. Ask AZR.
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Post by bluedog on Jul 6, 2019 10:59:01 GMT -6
I agree..........Custer's north advance went far enough to get him trapped..........Warrior pressure from the east of Battle Ridge gave Custer pause and he realized he was cut-off from Keogh and Calhoun......... This is John Stands In Timber's account.......... www.americanheritage.com/last-ghastly-moments-little-bighorn
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Post by shan on Jul 7, 2019 4:32:59 GMT -6
Bluedog,
Thanks for posting the John Stands in Timber account, I have the book and have read the relevant section many times before, but until reading this, it had never occurred to me that the account that Wolf Tooth is giving, refers to him first catching sight of the part of Custer's command that was making its way towards the Fords D. Like most people I suspect, I had assumed that he was talking about seeing the troops up on Luce ridge, and maybe catching sight of the last of the troops making their way down towards ford B, but this makes better sense.
Now I know that there's evidence of firing up on Luce, and Nye Cartwright as well, firing I'd assumed to have been directed at the Wolf Tooth and Big Foot band, but there were plenty of other targets that could have occupied the men up there, not least, them providing covering fire for the men down at Medicine Tail Ford, and a little later, some of the Indians coming over Weir Point.
Of course I know it makes little difference in the scheme of things whether it was in one place or another, but it certainly ticks a little box for the nerd in me.
Shan
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