|
|
Post by noggy on Nov 21, 2017 4:13:03 GMT -6
While looking through the Wikipedia article on the Crows, I saw this upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b8/Crow_warriors_and_Cheyenne_warriors_making_peace-_Ledger_drawing.jpg It is like the title says a ledger showing peace talks between the Cheyenne and the Crows. The warrior to the right is the Crow. What made me curios was the Cheyenne, who is carrying a saber.
Sabers were not common in any way among the Natives. But it is well known that the Ute turned Cheyenne Yellow Nose actually had one of these weapons. It was given to him by a Shoshone friend during his teens, and supposedly he used it during the battle of Little Bighorn. He described amongst other deeds how he in a one-on-one fight beat a soldier in the head with the flat side of his saber. Some have claimed it to be GAC, which is unlikely. But a smashed head would fit Tom Custer to a degree, even though so would being thrown into a meat grinder. Either way, we do know there did exist a Cheyenne who owned a saber.
Granted; the saber might just be the artist making the ledger more interesting, like all the warriors having rifles. Ledgers are by no means the equivalent to say photographs and may the result of pure imagination. But in general, the ledgers made by Plains Indians often show true events and were made with a sharp eye for details. Ledgers made by participants at LBH are often referred to during discussions about the battle. This one was made around 1880, not that long after the Cheyenne and Crows stopped fighting each other, so the memories of these encounters would be fresh. Or at least the stories of them, if told by participants to the artist. A Cheyenne wielding a saber during what probably is a scene from the 1870s just seems too... correct to be imagination.
What do you guys think? Am I just pulling this way too far, or is it a decent chance this actually depicts Yellow Nose during the intertribal wars?
PS: if anyone here knows anything about this or is a part of www.american-tribes.com/ or sites like it, I wpould appreciate any comments/help.
Cheers
|
|
|
|
Post by noggy on Dec 8, 2017 16:12:30 GMT -6
On a different note; do anyone know where one (meaning moi) could ask questions like this? I do not know american-trobes at all, just heard of them. Any ideas?
|
|
|
|
Post by tubman13 on Dec 10, 2017 18:06:52 GMT -6
You are, maybe, on the right track. Try American tribes.com
|
|
|
|
Post by noggy on Mar 20, 2018 4:00:43 GMT -6
You are, maybe, on the right track. Try American tribes.com Well, for all of you who have been going nuts wondering about this, the good folks over at AT have perhaps found the avswer. amertribes.proboards.com/thread/2693/cheyenne-crow-peaceMight be from a talk between Cheyenne scouts and Nez Perce i 1877. The saber more a symbol of stature. |
|
|
|
Post by herosrest on Mar 20, 2018 13:42:25 GMT -6
You are, maybe, on the right track. Try American tribes.com Well, for all of you who have been going nuts wondering about this, the good folks over at AT have perhaps found the avswer. amertribes.proboards.com/thread/2693/cheyenne-crow-peaceMight be from a talk between Cheyenne scouts and Nez Perce i 1877. The saber more a symbol of stature. Off the top of my head, Miles wrote about these fights in his memoirs but I don't recall anything political (tribal) being given. link to hits |
|
|
|
Post by noggy on Mar 20, 2018 14:06:58 GMT -6
Well, for all of you who have been going nuts wondering about this, the good folks over at AT have perhaps found the avswer. amertribes.proboards.com/thread/2693/cheyenne-crow-peaceMight be from a talk between Cheyenne scouts and Nez Perce i 1877. The saber more a symbol of stature. Off the top of my head, Miles wrote about these fights in his memoirs but I don't recall anything political (tribal) being given. link to hitsThe US Army used Cheyenne scouts, and they did try to convince some Nez Perce to surrender during the chase. The Nez Perce flight towards Canada is one of the most impressive displays of NAs against US troops. Very much overlooked when Indian Wars are discussed. |
|
|
|
Post by benteen on Mar 20, 2018 14:38:29 GMT -6
The Nez Perce flight towards Canada is one of the most impressive displays of NAs against US troops. Very much overlooked when Indian Wars are discussed. Yes Noggy he was brilliant. An Officer many years ago told me that they studied part of what he did at West Point. Don't know if it is true but I wouldn't doubt it. "From where the sun now sets I will fight no more forever" Chief Joesph Nez Perce Be Well Dan |
|
|
|
Post by herosrest on Mar 20, 2018 23:04:15 GMT -6
I'm about to confuse given wisdoms, i'm afraid..... Bobtail Horse. For some reason unknown at this moment, his name emerged from the back of my mind. A clue.... So.... Bobtail HorseThis leads into a Little Bighorn controversy = David Humphries Miller & the death at the ford. It is broadly accepted that White Cow Bull stood and stands uncorroborated with regards his presence at the ford. That is not so, linked here to D. H. Miller. Ho hum..... he became a scout under general N. Miles.
In 1879, he travelled with other seven Cheyenne to Canada to parley with Sitting Bull on his village on Milk River, to persuade him come back in USA.
He had a lively discussion with the great chief in his personal lodge, but he didn't manage to get no result. Died in 1922. Read more: So with BBH dead in 1922, he isn't quotable as 1936. However.... did he have a sword? Marquis comes to mind. His collection of artifacts...... fun. Sitting Bull was Dakotah. So, anysways..... it ain't Yellow Nose in the pictogram in question. |
|
|
|
Post by tubman13 on Mar 21, 2018 8:16:08 GMT -6
HR,
Bobtail Horse, Bobtail Bull, or Bobtail Bear? What a conundrum. Bobtail Horse attended the 50th reunion so he did not die in 1922. Come on HR you are better than that. You have to give up buying Miller and Whitaker.
Regards,
Tom
|
|
|
|
Post by herosrest on Mar 21, 2018 9:57:45 GMT -6
Well, there's a very good chance then, that he (BTB) corroborates WBC..... and it isn't all bull about an officer down in the water. Sturgis eventually learnt that it was his son which may explain quite a bit but there is always the wondering of why Custer didn't do what he clearly expressed to his command - Custer now made a speech to his men, saying, "We will go down and make a crossing and capture the village." The whole command then pulled off their hats and cheered.
Had the crossing been made then eight companies would have been engaged. I don't believe that Custer was intimidated by the numbers against, having commited to attack and sent Reno in. The considerations always move this onto issues of delay by the five companies but I honestly cannot accept it. The crossing was wide open and against a limited defence such as there was, initially, you line up a company on one or both flanks and lay down cover for the crossing.
Why didn't they cross? We will never know now.
|
|
|
|
Post by herosrest on Mar 21, 2018 10:10:32 GMT -6
HR, Bobtail Horse, Bobtail Bull, or Bobtail Bear? What a conundrum. Bobtail Horse attended the 50th reunion so he did not die in 1922. Come on HR you are better than that. You have to give up buying Miller and Whitaker. Regards, Tom I'm mounting a hobbyhorse here, with the 50th anniversary which by any standards was a huge gathering in re-enactment. During that, the 7th Cavalry marched onto the battlefield from the lower D fords, across cemetery ridge up towards LSH and then on towards Calhoun. This was photographed and filmed. There were several thousand Sioux and Cheyenne who participated by attacking the soldiers. I put up pictures of the 40th Anniversary re-enactment somewhere a li'l while back. Marquis and John Stands in Timber were both around there then. There is no way that they avoided that reunion. All those participants and their families and friends and tribes afterwards were talking the old days and merging the anniversary re-enactments and the battle. Long and short of that is that nothing from JSiT or Powell, both from long time after second hand, can be relied upon for squat diddley in real terms. In 1926, the 7th Cavalry did what Timber in 1956, said happened in 1876. All that is missing is bananas.  That is because, John Stands in Timber knew T.B. Marquis. Ford D is fantasy. Sorry, it was the 1921 anniversary. |
|
|
|
Post by tubman13 on Mar 21, 2018 10:51:35 GMT -6
HR,
The cavalry entrance you allude to was the old park entrance, I was on it last Summer. That entrance was near the Ford D area. Last year the Cheyenne, mounted their horses in the same general area. Regarding Ford D fantasy, could be, yet opinions are like a**holes everybody has one and some stink. By the way my post that yo quoted above said nothing about Ford D.
Regards,
Tom
|
|
|
|
Post by herosrest on Mar 21, 2018 16:17:15 GMT -6
I feel that we can agree that your post that I quoted above said nothing about Ford D. I mentioned it in my reply and you in yours. As you offer, opinions can be extremely bland and/or odorous and also deeply worthy and worthwhile and aromatic depending often upon wind direction. I think that LSH stunk to high heaven not long after the companies were despatched. Ford D theory is about the same with its origins in the desires of the Buffalo Bill guy whose name has eluded me. The one wo had the huge artifact collection. He so wanted the battle to have been fought on his land and it wasn't but no one was willing to upset him. Added - Paul Dyck. Arizona collector Dyck preserved Plains Indian history. He’d wanted to build his own museum near the entrance to the Little Bighorn Battlefield in Montana to house the 2,000 rare and beautiful items he’d accumulated. Dyck came close more than once, but the project failed to materialize. |
|
|
|
Post by noggy on Mar 22, 2018 4:05:09 GMT -6
Yes Noggy he was brilliant. An Officer many years ago told me that they studied part of what he did at West Point. Don't know if it is true but I wouldn't doubt it. "From where the sun now sets I will fight no more forever" Chief Joesph Nez Perce Be Well Dan I can believe that, and have heard similar things. The tactics used have been studied, even though I have no idea as to what extent. Just a quick google gave this citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.863.2693&rep=rep1&type=pdf which seems VIP. Bad and unnecessary war. Even Sheridan seemed to think so. All the best, Noggy |
|
