lens
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Post by lens on Apr 1, 2017 17:31:01 GMT -6
It is all educational Dave. dont have to change on my account however it would probably generate more discussion read education for me, if you started a new thread.
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Post by dave on Apr 1, 2017 18:57:48 GMT -6
Dan I was also curious as to how Libbie lived after her husband's death. She received $4,760 of GAC's $5,000 life insurance policy. The company deducted $240 as Custer worked in a dangerous kinda of work. She received a widow's pension that increased in amount with time. I have listed a site below which provides more info on Libbie's income after George. As always it is a pleasure to hear from you again. Lens If you wish to start a new thread please go right ahead. Regards Dave www.civilwarbummer.com/custers-soul-mate-or-intelligent-and-gorgeous/
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Post by montrose on Apr 2, 2017 10:46:34 GMT -6
I have little regard for Libbie.
LTC Custer left her in a bad situation, since he was a degenerate gambler.
To make money, she deliberately and knowingly slandered the officers, NCOs and enlisted men of the 7th Cavalry, She made scapegoats of me who followed the orders in true faith of her incompetent husband.
I sincerely hope she is rotting in hell, somewhere near her incompetent husband.
Do folks here study wars and battles outside LBH? Battle analysis starts with the commanders decision tree. I get confused that LBH forum members ignore standards and conditions used by tens of thousands of other forums. Junior commanders are blamed at length for following the orders they wee given. The orders were bad, but no one questions that.
Bad decisions kill people. I am guilty of a bad day, where I had 3 Iraqi soldiers die following my orders. To my shame, I don't even know their names. Why is LTC Custer given a blank check by forum members?
I seriously want to know.
WJB
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Post by edavids on Apr 2, 2017 11:59:41 GMT -6
I have little regard for Libbie. LTC Custer left her in a bad situation, since he was a degenerate gambler. To make money, she deliberately and knowingly slandered the officers, NCOs and enlisted men of the 7th Cavalry, She made scapegoats of me who followed the orders in true faith of her incompetent husband. I sincerely hope she is rotting in hell, somewhere near her incompetent husband. Do folks here study wars and battles outside LBH? Battle analysis starts with the commanders decision tree. I get confused that LBH forum members ignore standards and conditions used by tens of thousands of other forums. Junior commanders are blamed at length for following the orders they wee given. The orders were bad, but no one questions that. Bad decisions kill people. I am guilty of a bad day, where I had 3 Iraqi soldiers die following my orders. To my shame, I don't even know their names. Why is LTC Custer given a blank check by forum members? I seriously want to know. WJB Who on this board gives GAC a free pass? The BS board run by our favorite miscreant is another matter. You were all aware that the Boy General's s**t didn't stink, right? Best, David
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Post by benteen on Apr 2, 2017 13:22:41 GMT -6
Dan I was also curious as to how Libbie lived after her husband's death. She received $4,760 of GAC's $5,000 life insurance policy. The company deducted $240 as Custer worked in a dangerous kinda of work. She received a widow's pension that increased in amount with time. I have listed a site below which provides more info on Libbie's income after George. As always it is a pleasure to hear from you again. Lens If you wish to start a new thread please go right ahead. Regards Dave www.civilwarbummer.com/custers-soul-mate-or-intelligent-and-gorgeous/Dave, Pleasure is mine. I read somewhere that Custer lost money in I believe some kind of railroad venture and Libbie owed a few thousand to them. Perhaps one of our forum members would know more about it. Be Well Dan
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Post by dave on Apr 2, 2017 19:00:36 GMT -6
montrose I honestly believe Custer was not judged critically by people for the longest time because of the ignorance of the general public as to what really happened at the Little Big Horn. Hero worship was never questioned till after Watergate. The American public never questioned the position of Davy Crockett, Robert E Lee, GAC or FDR on the mantle of our homes.
Libbie created the romanticized version of Custer and demonizing Reno which was never questioned till after WW II. Her death in the 30's was swallowed up by the Depression and WW II. Think back to when you knew enough to know the Custer presented in history was wrong. With your education, training and commanding experience you can see through the cloud quicker than I could. Why would I question his story unless I began to think critically as to facts just not aligning as purported.
We will always have the pretenders and liars that seek their little niche in society as parasites on the carcasses of historical figures. I shudder to think about how much disinformation is created by shady individuals who willingly sacrifice truth for stature. The old adage about clay feet sure fits here. Regards Dave
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lens
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Post by lens on Apr 2, 2017 21:55:58 GMT -6
We were taught Custer was a hero. They Died With Their Boots On and all his Civil War accolades. People still think of JFK administration as Camelot. That whole thing was started by his wife after he died. I always thought he was let down. Since being here I am learning a lot. Even some of the books the hatred for Reno is palpable, Terrible Glory and SOTMS. I personally think Reno screwed the pooch on his retreat but there was no way he continue the charge or hold the skirmish line. He was left like the proverbial low hanging fruit. My thinking has really changed since reading this site. I have read some of the threads, 80 pages on some and they jump around a lot. I do not know why Custer did not pull back after seeing what he could from the bluffs. Custer should not have done anything on the 26th except rest and reconnaissance. The Indians really had no where to go that could not be followed. The more scattered they were the easier it would be to force them to the RES. The Buffalo were gone, the village was much to big to exist as a unit for long, game, grass, and sanitation is a big issue for a village that size. Every decision Custer made turned out to be wrong. The staff noticed that he was uncharacteristically quiet the night of the 24th. It is also hinted at in They Died With Their Boots On, when he breaks a watch chain or something so he left that item with Libby. Did he have an Idea that he was going to die? If so did that color his decision making process? A talk I heard in college, one that I dismissed because the speaker was a pacifist that said he wouldn't hurt someone to even protect his wife. He said two things, Crockett was a coward who died pleading for his life, that I researched and though the story has changed from killed fighting, captured and executed but dignified, based on the writings of a Mexican officer, to unknown. This speaker also said that Custer found out his wife was cheating with fellow officer and he turned this into a suicide mission out of grief and Libby out of guilt spent the rest of her life trying to make it up by making him a hero. I dismissed it as BS and still do, but if he was full of self doubt for what ever reason could that have colored his thinking?
As far as the actions of Libby, a lot of widows in the west turned to prostitution to make ends meet. Libby chose to make her living on the backs of her husband and his men instead.
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Post by dave on Apr 4, 2017 21:06:45 GMT -6
Lens
I have no military experience or expertise with moving a force from contact with an enemy---that is attempting to surround you--- with at least a six fold numerical advantage in numbers. I doubt many commanders have that experience or knowledge either. Arm chair "generals" who pontificate that Reno made an error in judgement by not waiting at least another 30 minutes have no standing and are just postulating based on their reenactment experience or study of cavalry tactics of the 1870s. No one has ever presented a better idea or plan than Reno's choice. Retreat, charge or retrograde or call it what you will, what else could he have done based on what he knew at the time in the flats? Only Reno knew all the circumstances on which he based his decision.
In all her writings and speeches, did Libbie ever provide a better solution BASED ON THE FACTS facing Reno? She along with the modern day Custer enthusiasts always say Reno should have held out longer before moving. Based on what? Reno was the only one who could have made that decision. How could he know that if he waited another 30 minutes Benteen would have arrived on the scene? He had about 900 hostiles against his 140 or so men, many of which were Indian scouts hunting Sioux ponies, what should he have done?
Regards Dave
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lens
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Post by lens on Apr 4, 2017 22:52:03 GMT -6
I am not saying he shouldn't have retreated. I am saying from what I have read so far it was disorganized and it may have cost more lives than necessary.
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Post by tubman13 on Apr 5, 2017 4:04:03 GMT -6
Reno did not, could not, retreat, the way was blocked, he broke out. What would have been Benteen's choice, Dave.
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Post by Colt45 on Apr 5, 2017 7:56:44 GMT -6
Lens, A breakout is almost a desperation maneuver. The unit is surrounded and has two choices: attempt a breakout or die in place/surrender. A breakout is a high casualty affair as the unit attempts to "attack" at the weakest point of the enemy in an effort to escape encirclement and break contact. There is no way a unit can breakout of encirclement and not take a lot of casualties.
Reno made the best decision given the circumstances. Heavily outnumbered with a dwindling ammo supply, he could either attempt a breakout or stay in the timber and ultimately be wiped out. He also realized the promised support was nowhere in site.
While the decision to breakout was the correct one, he could have handled it better by making sure all his men knew what they were going to do so he could have maximum push at the breakout point. He didn't make sure everyone was on the same page and as a result many of his command remained in the timber. That is the only fault I can find with the decision to breakout, in that the execution of the maneuver could have been handled better.
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Post by dave on Apr 5, 2017 19:09:16 GMT -6
Reno did not, could not, retreat, the way was blocked, he broke out. What would have been Benteen's choice, Dave. Wow! What a great question. I honestly believe that Benteen would never have gone as far into the flats as Reno did as he seemed to have a finely honed survival instinct. Benteen was a scrapper who had a knack for survival. But what do I know since I have a infantry mindset and hate horses. I would love to hear from some others about this question. Regards Dave
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lens
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Post by lens on Apr 5, 2017 19:53:44 GMT -6
As I said I know he had no choice. My problem was the "every man to himself" approach. No rear guard, no organization, no communication. I think the the head shot that sprayed him, rattled him and he stopped thinking like a leader and panicked. That is my only criticism of the retreat. I wasn't there of course and I HATE second guessing. I don't do it about EMS calls, I was a paramedic for 20+ years, I don't do it on fires, crawled through them for about the same amount of time. My pat comment is I wasn't there I don't know the entire situation. Maybe I should do that here but this is a discussion board about this event. The retreat from Weir Point was handled much better, of course they were not surrounded. All I have read is a military unit does its best AS A UNIT, Reno lost that and they were, again from what I have read so far, he was combat ineffective until Benteen showed up and then Benteen actually to be in charge not Reno. Just asking questions and trying to learn.
Len
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Post by dave on Apr 5, 2017 20:49:40 GMT -6
Lens A little mentioned aspect after the Little Big Horn was the political actions of the Democratic party in rushing in to attack Grant and his administration and blame Custer's defeat on their hands. Senators and Congressmen stood on the floors of their respective bodies making speeches and proposing legislation to assist Libbie and other widows of the 7th. One proposed legislative act was to award Libbie a pension of $50 per month as well as Custer's mother and father each receive a $50 per month pension also.
It was so out of hand that in July of 1876, the Texas state legislature passed a resolution of condolence, and praised Custer for his frontier service. This was from a state just 12 years earlier that had fought Custer and his Union army.
Custer was lifted up as a sacrifice for Grant's corruption and praised for his heroic actions in protecting the Great Western part of the nation. His political difficulties prior to the Summer Campaign when called to Washington D.C. were forgotten and he was forgiven.
Life is cyclic and politics has not changed only the players and the teams. Regards Dave
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Post by AZ Ranger on Apr 6, 2017 6:27:28 GMT -6
I think you should read William O Taylor about the formation just as they exited the timber. He states the troopers had thier revolvers in hand and arm extended. So at least his company formed up. It had to be semi effective since the Indians thought it was a charge and gave way. They were right. The charge was used to punch the hole in the surrounding Indians. It's the movement to the rallying point that became ugly. All variants of training and experience were evident on this move. Taylor states at point blank range at an Indian focused on him he missed.
He stated he had never ridden that fast before nor had he shot from a horse. At that range you only need to muzzle index to make a hit. What I think happens is a total focus on the target without regards to where the muzzle is pointing.
I do agree with Colt on the disorganization beyond that first company out. The timber forced narrow travel corridors and a waiting due to the defile effect of these trails. Communications were less than desirable starting with moving from the skirmish line. The battle readiness is what I think caused some of the decision making and the decisions were the best available for the situation.
At the other end of training and experience we have French riding at the rear of the retrograde and shooting Indians at the same time. They needed more like French and less like William O. Taylor. Running from the Indians was not as a much of a problem if you made hits like French. The problem is with emptying a revolver and then having to hold on with two hands to stay mounted. Add to that tunnel vision and I would suggest some soldiers never saw the Indian that pulled them off thier horse.
French had to threaten to shoot his company troopers to get them to slow down going into the timber. On the movement at full speed the horses would have to be threatened to slow because they were in the flight side of their thinking. They could sense the troopers fear and how tight they were holding on and responded to that with a full speed run.
It also appears to me that at the river there was a change and some fighting was exhibited. Ryan describes it.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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