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Post by wild on Mar 6, 2017 11:33:55 GMT -6
Hi Dave Agus cead mile dia dhuit fein. Ta an cupla fochail agat ? Maith an buachail.
If I recall correctly Dave you confessed that you had but little military experience . Well it's starting to show.
For the life of me I fail to understand how Benteen could possibly know what plans or force deployments Custer made after his left oblique order? Benteen knew no more of Keogh's location than he did of nuclear physics. Spot on, correct and we are in total agreement how could Benteen possibly know what plans or force deployments Custer made. Benteen did not see the full picture, yet he made a decision based on zero intell that possibly jeopardised the entire mission . What you guys did not realise is that Custer gets a vote and a deceiding vote at that. The senior military minds on this board have him covering Benteen's arrival on Calhoun Hill Benteen was obliged to consider what his CO was planning and how he might support these arrangements. Even if he could only reach Weir Point he was obliged by his oath,loyalty,honour of arms and tactically to make the effort.
Do you hold Benteen accountable for the 30 plus Irishmen who died at the LBH? Sure seems to be the case to me I think he missed out being responsible for the massacre by about 20 minutes [that's a guess]. But the point is that his performance was of such lethality that it was unfit for purpose and could only lead to tears.
I have been accused of being a Benteen hater, far from it the man was brilliant , the star of the battle....much more fascinating as a sleiveen than as a Saint. But it was you guys who dismissed Custer out of hand....only best available decisions would save the command. Listen up ...best available decisions are a fault in the communication command and control system . They are so rear as to be non existant and if you do happen to see one call the bomb explosive unit.
Best Wishes Richard
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Post by wild on Mar 6, 2017 12:26:07 GMT -6
Hi AZ Hi AZ
There were no Indians in Reno Creek so they were further away. How can they attack if they are not there? So what is your point? The distance between the Packs and Benteen was 7 miles. Benteen was closing with the Indians. At some point Benteen would reach the Indians putting them at the same distance from the packs as he was. A force of Indians bypassing Benteen would reach the packs before he could and before they were in defensive mode because Benteen did not inform them of the situation.
Wrong Reno was in charge Benteen had no role?
Cheers Richard
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Post by dave on Mar 6, 2017 13:26:23 GMT -6
Richard Tapadh leat! I think? Nil Gaeilge maith agam!
You are very correct in that I have no military experience except 2 years of ROTC which is not the same thing or a substitute for being in the service. No on to the match that is in overtime.
"Benteen did not see the full picture, yet he made a decision based on zero intell that possibly jeopardised the entire mission"
What else could Benteen do but act on what information was available which was zilch! Custer shared nothing with his officers prior to the fight and Cooke's order we have talked all the meat off of that bone! What intelligence do you believe was available to Benteen?
"I think he missed out being responsible for the massacre by about 20 minutes [that's a guess]. But the point is that his performance was of such lethality that it was unfit for purpose and could only lead to tears."
I am unsure as to what your point is with that statement? AZ has shown repeatedly Benteen advanced at a reasonable pace watering his horses in a prudent and sound manner. Of course there is no way he knew the situation facing Reno till he arrived on the bluffs. No tears were caused by his advancement only by the battle itself set up and begun by Custer and Custer only!
Benteen was no relation and I do not think I would have cared for the man but I certainly respect him and would seek his leadership in a fight. Custer may have been a Thoroughbred, fast, furious and short ranged, but Benteen was steady and took care of his mounts. I wonder have you ever been in the American West or South in June? Ever played or fished in temperatures in the 90's F? If not, believe me that water is precious and you hydrate at EVERY opportunity.
As always I enjoy our exchanges but fear we are making no headway so let us move on to another topic. Regards Dave
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Post by Colt45 on Mar 6, 2017 14:51:21 GMT -6
I have been reading this back and forth on Benteen for some time now, and it appears Richard is not going to cede anything to the fact that Custer was the ultimate responsible person, and on Reno Hill, Reno was responsible. Despite Steve and others providing solid arguments about Benteen making the best available decision, Richard is convinced the disaster at LBH could have been prevented if only Benteen had charged headlong north with no knowledge at all, and that his extra 140 men would have been enough to rescue Custer and save the day.
In short, it's all Benteen's fault. He was just a rotten, dirty, disloyal SOB.
When I served, the commanding officer, no matter at what level, was responsible for all that his command did or did not do. If one of my enlisted men did something wrong, I was the responsible officer, and my commander above me was also responsible, and so on. That is just how it is. Benteen was responsible for the battalion assigned to him. He carried out the orders he was given when he left for the scout, prior to Reno and Custer splitting. When he realized there was no threat to the south, he began returning to the main trail, which is probably what Custer would assume he would do if no threat were found. At the hilltop, Reno asks him to stay and help, which overrides the presumed order in the Martini note. His actions at the hilltop probably saved the lives of everyone there over the next day and a half.
I have absorbed Richard's arguments and tried to see some logic in what he has said, but I find he makes many assumptions about Benteen's state of mind and attitude which cannot be proven, and applies those assumptions to the actions of Benteen during the battle. His whole argument is based on assumptions that cannot possibly be validated as they are based on what he believes Benteen was thinking.
I don't know what army, if any, Richard has served in, but if what he believes about command structure is true, I don't ever want to be a member of that army, for that is an army that believes commanders are not responsible for their commands, and that subordinate officers must not use their initiative and intelligence, but merely "do or die". In the army I served in (US Army - Armor/Cavalry), I was taught to carry out orders to accomplish the mission, but to also use my judgement if the situation changed and to always do what was best for my troops in the accomplishment of that mission. The US Army recognized that in combat, orders issued at one point in time almost always become obsolete as the battle rages on, and it expects its officers to always use their best judgement to: 1) accomplish the mission, if not impossible; and 2) take the best care of their commands as is possible.
In my opinion, Benteen did both of the above at LBH. Now, let's just accept that Richard blames Benteen for everything that went wrong at LBH and most of the rest of us do not. With that, I second the motion to just move on.
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Post by fred on Mar 6, 2017 16:24:31 GMT -6
I have been reading this back and forth on Benteen for some time now, and it appears Richard is not going to cede anything to the fact that Custer was the ultimate responsible person, and on Reno Hill, Reno was responsible. Despite Steve and others providing solid arguments about Benteen making the best available decision, Richard is convinced the disaster at LBH could have been prevented if only Benteen had charged headlong north with no knowledge at all, and that his extra 140 men would have been enough to rescue Custer and save the day. In short, it's all Benteen's fault. He was just a rotten, dirty, disloyal SOB. When I served, the commanding officer, no matter at what level, was responsible for all that his command did or did not do. If one of my enlisted men did something wrong, I was the responsible officer, and my commander above me was also responsible, and so on. That is just how it is. Benteen was responsible for the battalion assigned to him. He carried out the orders he was given when he left for the scout, prior to Reno and Custer splitting. When he realized there was no threat to the south, he began returning to the main trail, which is probably what Custer would assume he would do if no threat were found. At the hilltop, Reno asks him to stay and help, which overrides the presumed order in the Martini note. His actions at the hilltop probably saved the lives of everyone there over the next day and a half. I have absorbed Richard's arguments and tried to see some logic in what he has said, but I find he makes many assumptions about Benteen's state of mind and attitude which cannot be proven, and applies those assumptions to the actions of Benteen during the battle. His whole argument is based on assumptions that cannot possibly be validated as they are based on what he believes Benteen was thinking. I don't know what army, if any, Richard has served in, but if what he believes about command structure is true, I don't ever want to be a member of that army, for that is an army that believes commanders are not responsible for their commands, and that subordinate officers must not use their initiative and intelligence, but merely "do or die". In the army I served in (US Army - Armor/Cavalry), I was taught to carry out orders to accomplish the mission, but to also use my judgement if the situation changed and to always do what was best for my troops in the accomplishment of that mission. The US Army recognized that in combat, orders issued at one point in time almost always become obsolete as the battle rages on, and it expects its officers to always use their best judgement to: 1) accomplish the mission, if not impossible; and 2) take the best care of their commands as is possible. In my opinion, Benteen did both of the above at LBH. Now, let's just accept that Richard blames Benteen for everything that went wrong at LBH and most of the rest of us do not. With that, I second the motion to just move on. For those of you who have not read this post, above, please do so. It is an exceptionally fine post. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by wild on Mar 6, 2017 16:50:24 GMT -6
Hi Colt I have been reading this back and forth on Benteen for some time now, and it appears Richard is not going to cede anything to the fact that Custer was the ultimate responsible person, and on Reno Hill, Reno was responsible. Despite Steve and others providing solid arguments about Benteen making the best available decision, Richard is convinced the disaster at LBH could have been prevented if only Benteen had charged headlong north with no knowledge at all, and that his extra 140 men would have been enough to rescue Custer and save the day.
In short, it's all Benteen's fault. He was just a rotten, dirty, disloyal SOB. Well your first salvo is way off target as I have posted more than once as follows...... No Benteen was not responsible for Custer's dimise.
His actions at the hilltop probably saved the lives of everyone there over the next day and a half. We are looking at his performance for the period covering his oblique march to his retreat from Weir Point. By all means credit him with holding the defence together on Reno Hill but it is not part of our discussion.
Reno asks him to stay and help, which overrides the presumed order in the Martini note The fact that Benteen took off after Weir without orders , without informing Reno, triggering a disorganised ad hoc advance would suggest that halting for Reno suited Benteen's own agenda rather than complying with military protocol.
I have absorbed Richard's arguments and tried to see some logic in what he has said, but I find he makes many assumptions about Benteen's state of mind and attitude which cannot be proven, and applies those assumptions to the actions of Benteen during the battle. His whole argument is based on assumptions that cannot possibly be validated as they are based on what he believes Benteen was thinking Most of the issues I raise are based on Benteen's own evidence at the RCOI. It is a fact that he failed to communicate with the pacts ,this is not an assumption. As you make much of this you might have obliged me with an example.
I was taught to carry out orders to accomplish the mission, but to also use my judgement if the situation changed and to always do what was best for my troops in the accomplishment of that mission. The US Army recognized that in combat, orders issued at one point in time almost always become obsolete as the battle rages on, and it expects its officers to always use their best judgement to: 1) accomplish the mission, if not impossible; and 2) take the best care of their commands as is possible Could not disagree with that. But judgement is not a guess .What did Benteen base his judgement on? As I have pointed out to Dave the Officer Commanding the mission gets a vote. He had placed Keogh's battalion in position to aid the approach of Benteen. This had to be allowed for when making a judgement . Benteen made no attempt to aquaint himself with the necessary intell on which to base a judgement.
Now, let's just accept that Richard blames Benteen for everything that went wrong at LBH and most of the rest of us do not. With that, I second the motion to just move on. Well that is just unfair . I have confined myself to but one short chapter of the unpleasantness along the LBH and that solely on tactical issues. And a motion to just move on is a bit rich from someone who has contributed 1 post to the debate. "Just move on" relegates me to nuisance value . Best Regards Richard
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Post by dave on Mar 6, 2017 17:21:14 GMT -6
Now that Colt has tagged me out I am setting off for the sunset! I may have a sip of Bushmills neat to settle my nerves from this fierce bout. Make that 2. Regards Dave
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Post by wild on Mar 6, 2017 17:42:44 GMT -6
Hi Dave how are you?
What else could Benteen do but act on what information was available which was zilch! Custer shared nothing with his officers prior to the fight and Cooke's order we have talked all the meat off of that bone! What intelligence do you believe was available to Benteen? If he had no information on which to base a judgement he had two options open to him. Undertake a recce . It was at least possible to get to Weir Point. Or he could take a chance. The mission obliged him to do everything to keep it alive. This he failed to do. For all Benteen knew Custer and all 5 companies were just beyond Weir Point intending to attack across Ford B. But he was at the very minimun obliged to attempt to open communication with Custer. People have spoken about the US Military today. I cannot see a modern combat unit give up their mission as easy as Benteen relinquished his.
I am unsure as to what your point is with that statement Sure I'll elucidate. I think Custer and the mission were beyond help . If Benteen had bypassed Reno and went directly to Weir Point he would have missed being of use to Custer by 20 minutes [and that time is a total guess]. But the point is and I think people miss this, all the above is hind sight and does not absolve Benteen from trying.
Been to Gettysburg in high Summer...hot for an Irish man.
As regards making headway ,,, these discussions are strictly circuitous. All the best Richard
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Post by montrose on Mar 6, 2017 17:54:41 GMT -6
The mission was a regiment attack in the valley with 8 companies. For reasons unknown LTC Custer took the main body away from the attack, without informing the advance guard. The advance guard was defeated when the main body failed to be where they were obligated to be.
MAJ Reno was not responsible for supporting the main body. LTC Custer was responsible for supporting the advanced guard, which he failed to do. This gross negligence would have led to LTC Custer's second court martial, where he would have been convicted. Death saved this incompetent officer from being held accountable for his actions. (LTC Custer was convicted of gross tactical negligence for a series of bad acts during the 1867 campaign. He was suspended without pay for a year).
Respectfully,
William
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 6, 2017 18:56:11 GMT -6
Wild, your arguments are much like a guppy trying to breath in low oxygen water in a small bowl. Seems that it is time to concede on both threads. No one seems to be buying what you are selling. Sonny Liston even knew when to quit. You are not even going to squeak out a decision here, ref and judges cards are against you, Colt has already handed you a standing 8 count!
Regards, Tom
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Post by wild on Mar 6, 2017 19:58:19 GMT -6
Hi Tom A home town decision. It goes too deep in the American psyche to see their totem brought down. The same mindset awarded 18 medels of honour to the 7th at wounded knee [casualties included 24 children] I would expect nothing less from the hometown judges here. Best Wishes Richard
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Post by dave on Mar 6, 2017 22:57:12 GMT -6
Richard If you think Gettysburg was hot you gotta come on down to Mississippi in the summer. 90's F with about 80% plus humidity and dew point makes the body seek cooling quickly. Montana would be what is called dry heat as the humidity is rather low in the high desert.
I see you as standing at the helm as your vessel slips below the waves fiercely waving your fist at all who fail to see your point. I am unsure of what the American psyche is regarding LBH as I see it as a monumental failure of the army. Allowing Custer to resume field command was the beginning of the end of the campaign to return the tribes to the reservation.
Montrose and Colt have shared many times over what a colossal flop GAC was and the mission died with him when he split the command into smaller sections as he headed north. You keep trying to make some point that Benteen upheld American Virtue or something similar but that is not true. I have real American heroes that I know as do other Americans so Benteen is not my idol.
The Medal of Honor was awarded to 24 men but Goldin's is the only one I believe to be bogus as I am not familiar with the others. I find it very difficult to sit in judgement of those who have served and suffered the experience of combat. Goldin finagled his medal with the assistance of Benteen, the Assistant Secretary of War and others. Society is full those who wish to be heroes and gain the respect of others they so badly crave. Every country has erroneously awarded combat awards to frauds so we are not alone.
I have no idea who the hometown judges are you speak of as we as a nation hold our selves to high standards and do not hesitate to share our dirty laundry with all. This amalgamated nation has made its share of mistakes from slavery to conquering Native Americans to civil rights struggles but we have stood the test of time and the critical eye of history.
As you stated this discussion is strictly circuitous so I am hoping off the carousel so enjoy the mirror debate my friend. Regards Dave
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Post by wild on Mar 7, 2017 1:53:19 GMT -6
Hi Dave Thanks for the debate Your defence of Benteen was brilliant bearing in mind your lack of military experience.
I see you as standing at the helm as your vessel slips below the waves fiercely waving your fist at all who fail to see your point. I like to debate robustly but as to the use of the fist I am far too old. My mention of the medel of honour was indeed re the massacre at Wounded Knee.[ just in case you thought I ment the LBH.]
I have no idea who the hometown judges are you speak of as we as a nation hold our selves to high standards and do not hesitate to share our dirty laundry with all. This amalgamated nation has made its share of mistakes from slavery to conquering Native Americans to civil rights struggles but we have stood the test of time and the critical eye of history. Nicely said
As you stated this discussion is strictly circuitous so I am hoping off the carousel so enjoy the mirror debate my friend. I enjoyed your company on the spin.
Best Wishes Richard
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 7, 2017 6:08:32 GMT -6
Hi AZ Hi AZ There were no Indians in Reno Creek so they were further away. How can they attack if they are not there? So what is your point?The distance between the Packs and Benteen was 7 miles. Benteen was closing with the Indians. At some point Benteen would reach the Indians putting them at the same distance from the packs as he was. A force of Indians bypassing Benteen would reach the packs before he could and before they were in defensive mode because Benteen did not inform them of the situation. Wrong Reno was in chargeBenteen had no role? Cheers Richard It's obvious that you haven't been there or you wouldn't make such an error. Indians would have to cross at ford A or they would move to the bluffs. Benteen placed himself between the Indians on the bluffs and the pack train. The Indians retreated. So just how close do you think the Indians were to the pack train at any time until they were surrounded on Reno Hill. There is no way that force of Indians were going to go across Ford A and get to the pack train which was climbing out of Reno Creek and moving toward Reno Hill.
As far as the 7 miles that would be the last time Benteen saw them. Unless you believe they were stationary they would be moving forward toward Reno Hill. The lead which included some of the ammunition mules would be a lot closer.
That you think the pack train with all the troopers assigned and the rear guard was defenseless is another error. So when McDougall heard gunfire and moved to the front of the pack train that would be an appropriate reaction. That was done before any observation.
Seems to me that you are suggesting that McDougall was not competent as an Indian fighter and would not observe any approaching Indians. That is another error.
I think you must want Benteen to accompany the pack train which means that Reno is wiped out and the Indians have the high ground above Benteen and the slow moving pack train. Benteen choices were to go slow or get closer to the action. The pack train was in the competent hands of McDougall and battalion size group of soldiers. Count how many soldiers were with Reno and then count the pack train and rear guard. If you believe that they needed an additional battalion of troopers to escort the pack train then what about Reno in the valley?
Finally at the divide the wings were reformed to move to contact with the Big Village. The belief was that they were observed and that they were going to move at sufficient speed to make contact with the Indians. Kanipe gave the pack train sufficient notification that the movement to contact was still on. Custer was not engaged at the time of sending Martin. Just what do think Benteen could share with McDougall with Martin telling him they are "skedaddling".
I noticed that you challenged Dave with regards to military experience. So could you share your officer experience in the military? What I think you are doing is based upon an enlisted man observations which does not have the same "make the best available decision" of leadership by an officer. At our level as enlisted men we could make choices of when to shoot or not and how deep to dig the bunker.
Regards
Steve
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 7, 2017 6:28:57 GMT -6
But judgement is not a guess .What did Benteen base his judgement on? As I have pointed out to Dave the Officer Commanding the mission gets a vote. He had placed Keogh's battalion in position to aid the approach of Benteen. This had to be allowed for when making a judgement . Benteen made no attempt to aquaint himself with the necessary intell on which to base a judgement.
I think "He had placed Keogh's battalion in position to aid the approach of Benteen" needs some looking at. Since I am not an officer I would address this as an enlisted man and a shooter. So if you believe that it would take 3 companies to assist Benteen that would suggest there was a huge problem observed after sending a single messenger Martin who was told he come back if safe.
If so why would Custer allow a free shot at the pack train all the way from Reno Creek to Medicine Tail Coulee and up the other side. What makes you think that a 3 company strength force is to sit and watch the pack train destroyed at a distance beyond the range of thier weapon system. Just place yourself where you think Keogh was waiting see how far that it is to travel without fire support. If Benteen had made it you think he would say thanks for the support. There is nothing in the Keogh position that prevents Indians from crossing the river and attacking the slow moving pack train.
Exactly what support would three companies be providing to Benteen and the pack train. You really believe that the mules can move down Cedar Coulee and cross MTC and make it up the other side without support and suddenly when they top out they need 3 companies for assistance. I think Benteen might want to punch out someone for waiting at a distance.
Since this is hypothetical we will never know but what I do know is that standing across MTC even with my own rifle I could do nothing to support an attack on the pack train but be able to observe it at a distance.
Regards
Steve
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