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Post by wild on Mar 5, 2017 15:13:23 GMT -6
Hi Dan So it would appear that if true Rommel agrees with your opinion on Benteen I like it Cheers
Ps Rommel did win did he not?
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Post by benteen on Mar 5, 2017 15:16:36 GMT -6
. Let me ask you what would it have cost Benteen to have kept the train posted? Best Wishes Richard Richard, I did say that I believe Benteen was in error for not sending a message to Custer letting him know he received his message, but keep the pack train posted, about what? Benteen didnt know anymore about Custer or what was going on up ahead than Mathey or McDougal. Be Well Dan
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Post by benteen on Mar 5, 2017 15:24:48 GMT -6
Hi Dan So it would appear that if true Rommel agrees with your opinion on BenteenI like it Cheers Ps Rommel did win did he not? Hi Richard, Im sorry my friend I dont understand the correlation. Be Well Dan
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Post by wild on Mar 5, 2017 15:34:03 GMT -6
Hi Dan Benteen didnt know anymore about Custer or what was going on up ahead than Mathey or McDougal. Benteen arrived at the Reno crash site over an hour before the packs. The packs were over 7 miles back the trail strung out over 3 miles. It was Mathey's questioning an Indian and a visual which had the pack troops close up and rearrange the the escort Was the fact that the Packs were now entering an active fire zone where a battalion had been carved up not of some passing interest to Mathey and Mc Dougal? If Benteen did not think that an urgent message from HQ was sufficent reason to contact the packs , surely a 1000 Indians and a semi massacre was?
The very Best Dan Richard
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Post by wild on Mar 5, 2017 15:37:34 GMT -6
Hi Dan Advice from the defeated should carry a health warning. If Rommell had inquired as to Pattons cavalry background and his beating of shellshocked troops he might have fared better. Hurrah Richard
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Post by benteen on Mar 5, 2017 16:55:50 GMT -6
Hi Dan Benteen didnt know anymore about Custer or what was going on up ahead than Mathey or McDougal.Benteen arrived at the Reno crash site over an hour before the packs. The packs were over 7 miles back the trail strung out over 3 miles. It was Mathey's questioning an Indian and a visual which had the pack troops close up and rearrange the the escort Was the fact that the Packs were now entering an active fire zone where a battalion had been carved up not of some passing interest to Mathey and Mc Dougal? If Benteen did not think that an urgent message from HQ was sufficent reason to contact the packs , surely a 1000 Indians and a semi massacre was? The very Best Dan Richard Richard, Oh OK I thought you meant when he got the message from Martini and was still on the trail. After he met up with Reno, Yes, I believe someone should have gotten a message to the pack train to let them know all hell was breaking loose and to see that they were OK. Be Well Dan
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Post by benteen on Mar 5, 2017 16:58:26 GMT -6
Hi Dan Advice from the defeated should carry a health warning. If Rommell had inquired as to Pattons cavalry background and his beating of shellshocked troops he might have fared better. Hurrah Richard Hi Richard, Perhaps he may have But with Hitler calling the shots, he didnt have a chance. Be Well Dan
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Post by wild on Mar 5, 2017 17:07:17 GMT -6
Read on.... The Indians made a huge tactical error [having no central command did not allow for best available decisions.] They mounted a premature advance towards Weir Point. Benteen having no interest in the packs left them to their own devices and thus they wandered along the trail in the direction their secretive commander had vanished. If the Indians had waited but another 15 minutes not a mule would have made it back to Reno Hill.....the Indians would have bagged the lot.
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Post by dave on Mar 5, 2017 19:23:58 GMT -6
One thing I learned while serving as a reserve police officer when facing physical confrontations was to always use your training, techniques and cheat! Cheating is always the best and quickest way to victory! Never fight fair fight to win and go home safely. I once had a large human being one time who wanted to whip my ass and remove several of my ribs as he planned to pull my heart out of my chest but after spraying him with pepper spray he asked very nicely, several times in fact , for me to pour water in his eyes while handcuffed. You just have to have a winning personality to work with people successfully and a back up.
For this match I plan to use the following:
1) Opening music Rule, Britannia!
2) Give him the autographed portrait of Fredrick Benteen inscribed: To Richard, One of My Biggest Fans, Best Wishes Fred
3) Remind him that Custer never gave Benteen verbal orders but sent a written order/message that almost 141 years later is still debated as to what it meant or directed by veteran military enlisted and officers
4) Common sense is never a bad thing for an officer to have when deciding if a suicide mission should be attempted when he is there and facing the decision in real time not as a Monday Morning Quarterback! 5) If all else fails then I will just have to say, "Bless His Heart" and you know what that means! Regards Dave
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Post by wild on Mar 6, 2017 0:24:20 GMT -6
Very nice Dave Unfortunately Benteen did the cheating against his own comrades,his CO and his oath. Always a pleasure. Richard
PS The answer to the question I put to you was that Benteen did not know that Keogh was in position to cover his approach.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 6, 2017 4:46:50 GMT -6
Hi AZ I think if I believe Weir he never talked with Reno and decided to go look for himself without his company. I think someone should have been doing that. So that is good decisionAnd by the same token other unit commanders could undertake similar decisions in the same manner at the same time.?
I think you are going down a dead end street if want me to believe that officers should never deviate from the last order they were given. If you don't have good decision making skills than you should not be an officer.
I disagree that Benteen's decisions were mission negatives. The pack train did exactly what the mission required so Benteen was freed up to arrive in time to support Reno on the HillBenteen had no hand act or part in advising the pack train as to the mission, alteration in chain of command,navagation or urgency. That the train arrived safely is no thanks to him but to Mathey. It is but a small chore of staff work which Benteen failed to carry out. Let me ask you what would it have cost Benteen to have kept the train posted? Best Wishes Richard PS It is not just one issue but we also see this indifference in Benteen making no attempt to inform Custer nor Reno.
Richard
Kanipe gave the pack train everything that was included in the Martin note. The note did not state that Benteen was placed in charge of the pack train only to bring it forward. I am not sure that it was ever clear regarding the end point of travel for the pack train. It did not state relieve Mathey and McDougal of command of the pack train and rear guard.
Benteen's last order was to pitch into anything that he found and if he found something that he would let Custer know. You have lived to long in era of electronic communications and I suspect that is part of the issue. Just how often would you send a message to Custer when in close proximity of a Big Village filled with Indians willing to fight?
I have no clue why you would think Benteen would coordinate with Reno. The last that he knew there were 8 companies in the main body, the pack train, and the rear guard. Benteen was long gone before Custer separated Reno. What it shows is your predisposition against Benteen.
I think if you were talking a clear view of what occurred than you would look at what Custer who was in charge of the whole regiment did as far as communication. When did he let Reno know he was going to the bluffs? Would that have helped if Reno knew he had to buy some time?
When did Custer let Benteen know that he was sending Reno into the valley and that he was going to move to the bluffs and toward the other end of the Big Village. Custer knew it in Reno Creek. So where were the messengers to Reno, Benteen, the pack train, and the rear guard.
Seems to me it was standard not to communicate by the example of the regimental commander. Yet you want to make it appear as if Benteen did something different in actions regarding communication than Custer.
Regards
Steve
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 6, 2017 4:59:18 GMT -6
Hi Richard
I think you are missing a decision point regarding the pack train. At what point were there any Indians between Benteen and the pack train. (Hint Never) So once Benteen makes contact with Reno then Hare is sent to the pack train and I am sure tells them why he needs to have the ammunition mules brought forward. The pack train is strung out and when they state it arrived it is the last of the pack train and not the first mules or even those in middle. They must close up in order for the pack train in total to have arrived. That requires an extended period of time.
The rear guard had already taken appropriate action when they heard gun fire. McDougall moved a portion of the rear guard to lead the pack train and they did it without the need from someone to give them orders. McDougall made what he thought was best available choice and that's how it works.
Regards
Steve
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Post by wild on Mar 6, 2017 5:59:32 GMT -6
Hi AZ Again you defend Benteen's actions by listing Custer's failings. Let us agree that Benteen was every bit as incompetent as Custer.
Kanipe gave the pack train everything that was included in the Martin note Even if it was an exact replica, Benteen was obliged to send it back. If it did no more than emphasise the urgency that was reason enough to inform the packs. Where do you draw the line as to what is communicated to the relevant units? Do you want a verible standard ? In the case of Kanipe Benteen did not know what was the message.
I have no clue why you would think Benteen would coordinate with Reno. The last that he knew there were 8 companies in the main body, the pack train, and the rear guard. Benteen was long gone before Custer separated Reno. What it shows is your predisposition against Benteen. I don't understand this. I have no interest in Benteen per se . However the period between his oblique departure and retreat to Reno Hill is fascinating because most things can be pinned ,400 surviving witnesses plus the main characters , verifiable conclusions can be arrived at. This is a far more interesting chapter of the battle than the LS which is purely speculation.
I think you are missing a decision point regarding the pack train. At what point were there any Indians between Benteen and the pack train. At a distance of 7 miles Benteen had no chance of stopping an Indian attack on the packs.
The rear guard had already taken appropriate action when they heard gun fire. McDougall moved a portion of the rear guard to lead the pack train and they did it without the need from someone to give them orders. McDougall made what he thought was best available choice and that's how it works. Hare was sent by Reno . The advance of the Pack train along the trail to Weir point was criminal and Benteen allowed this to happen.
McDougall moved a portion of the rear guard to lead the pack train and they did it without the need from someone to give them orders Not orders information. They acted when they were in sight of Reno's fight......far too late.
McDougall made what he thought was best available choice and that's how it works The best choice in support of the mission .
Best Wishes Richard
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Post by dave on Mar 6, 2017 10:17:12 GMT -6
Richard
"The answer to the question I put to you was that Benteen did not know that Keogh was in position to cover his approach."
I do not recall having read this question in our correspondence so please forgive my not responding earlier. For the life of me I fail to understand how Benteen could possibly know what plans or force deployments Custer made after his left oblique order? Benteen knew no more of Keogh's location than he did of nuclear physics.
Are you demanding that Benteen should have been clairvoyant? Do you hold Benteen accountable for the 30 plus Irishmen who died at the LBH? Sure seems to be the case to me. Is mise le meas Dave
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 6, 2017 10:57:43 GMT -6
Hi AZ Again you defend Benteen's actions by listing Custer's failings. Let us agree that Benteen was every bit as incompetent as Custer. Nothing to defend its how they did business in 1876. Do you offer proof that the 7th Cavalry communicated in a different manner in 1876? Kanipe gave the pack train everything that was included in the Martin noteEven if it was an exact replica, Benteen was obliged to send it back. If it did no more than emphasise the urgency that was reason enough to inform the packs. Where do you draw the line as to what is communicated to the relevant units? Do you want a verible standard ? In the case of Kanipe Benteen did not know what was the message. Apparently not. Once is enough for US soldiers. There was no urgency when Benteen received the note and by the time Benteen contacted Reno then Hare was sent to the pack train. Your first creating some form of communication that you think is necessary when no officer in the 7th has suggested it necessary. I have no clue why you would think Benteen would coordinate with Reno. The last that he knew there were 8 companies in the main body, the pack train, and the rear guard. Benteen was long gone before Custer separated Reno. What it shows is your predisposition against Benteen.I don't understand this. Here is what you said "PS It is not just one issue but we also see this indifference in Benteen making no attempt to inform Custer nor Reno. I have no interest in Benteen per se . However the period between his oblique departure and retreat to Reno Hill is fascinating because most things can be pinned ,400 surviving witnesses plus the main characters , verifiable conclusions can be arrived at. This is a far more interesting chapter of the battle than the LS which is purely speculation.
So with approximately which ones complain about Benteen as you do? We can subtract those from your 400 and see how many are neutral or favor Benteen. I think you are missing a decision point regarding the pack train. At what point were there any Indians between Benteen and the pack train.
At a distance of 7 miles Benteen had no chance of stopping an Indian attack on the packs. There were no Indians in Reno Creek so they were further away. How can they attack if they are not there? So what is your point?The rear guard had already taken appropriate action when they heard gun fire. McDougall moved a portion of the rear guard to lead the pack train and they did it without the need from someone to give them orders. McDougall made what he thought was best available choice and that's how it works.Hare was sent by Reno . The advance of the Pack train along the trail to Weir point was criminal and Benteen allowed this to happen.
Wrong Reno was in charge.
McDougall moved a portion of the rear guard to lead the pack train and they did it without the need from someone to give them ordersNot orders information. They acted when they were in sight of Reno's fight......far too late.
To late for what? McDougall reacted when they heard gun fire in the distance. They were not in sight of the Reno fight. They moved to where Reno was rallying on Reno Hill. They could not see the Reno fight from Reno Creek.
McDougall made what he thought was best available choice and that's how it worksThe best choice in support of the mission . Best Wishes Richard That is what McDougall did.
Regards
Steve
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