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Post by wild on Mar 4, 2017 2:38:18 GMT -6
PS I am reading the Real Frederick Benteen thread for the 1st time and am learning quite a bit. I am believe Richard should reread it and see if his position might shift. The "real Benteen" is a discussion on his character and has precious little to do with his contribution at the LBH.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 4, 2017 6:57:03 GMT -6
Hi AZ American officers are taught to make the best available decision which could include not following an order if the best available decision is contrary to an order.In practice this means that if a subordinate thinks he has a better idea than the CO he gets to implement his idea yes? cheers Richard Richard Are you asking about a choice that accomplish the same mission and would be something expected to be done by reasonable officers in the same circumstance? I think the battalion commanders assigned by Custer and out of direct communication and in changing circumstances have the expectation to make the best available decision. I think there is a difference in NCOs and enlisted men when it comes to orders. I was never taught to make the best available choice. If so I might have been in the NCO club drinking beer as the best available choice. Regards Steve
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 4, 2017 7:21:40 GMT -6
AZ has even made a lenghty case against the need for communication.
Richard
False
We are addressing one point in time starting with the delivery of a note to Benteen from Martin exclusively. Benteen is aware of what Kanipe told him regarding the pack train. He had every expectation that it was delivered. He also knew as long as he remained in Reno Creek the Indians would have to go though him. There was no new information to pass on and Benteen rightly so in my opinion moved forward to at least reach some type of observation location where he could make another best available decision.
At that point he could see whether his battalion moving forward was the best choice or did the pack train need more attention.
We are talking about a relative short period of time in Reno Creek.
Regards
Steve
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Post by wild on Mar 4, 2017 8:33:47 GMT -6
Every episode of US history has it's iconic battle....Bunker Hill ,Alamo,Gettysburg,Midway, Bastogne and for the conquest of the West there is the Little Big Horn. But there is a problem ; the battle has no redeeming features rather it is defined by incompetance ,drunken cowardice and betrayal. Well the folks will not countinance this ; we need a hero ;step forward Capt Benteen. Elevate a crossing of paths to saving , doing nothing to calming the situation, deserting post to a recce,disobeying orders to taking best available decision.and we have our cool clean hero. The other thread " the real Benteen" did not take a close look at his performance confining itself to his private life and character. What I have done is to run the tactical rule over his contribution during the period... oblique left to retreat from Weir Point and found that there are issues to address.
Hi AZ Apologies I should have said AZ has even made a lenghty case against the need for communication with the pack train. This issue is not a stand alone issue he also did not inform Custer that he had halted. And you still have not answered the question.
At that point he could see whether his battalion moving forward was the best choice or did the pack train need more attention. What has this got to do with not sending back vital intell to the pack train? There is no point in you making up excuses when you have posted that Benteen was applying the standards of an incompetent [as per the colonel]
Best Wishes Richard
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Post by dave on Mar 4, 2017 15:55:08 GMT -6
Richard Benteen's character has all to do with his actions at the LBH. A man's character is certainly reflected by his behavior and decisions made under pressure such as in battle as well as reputation. I would be interested in a combat vet's opinion on this matter.
Are officers in the Irish Army required to rigidly obey orders with no latitude to use their training and common sense to accomplish their missions? In the American Army they are able to use their skills to adapt and overcome the enemy as required for victory. Blindly following orders would not have saved Custer and only add to the body count. I am surprised you advocate for blind adherence.
Accusing Benteen of betrayal is a canard made with whole cloth. I am dumbfounded that you would believe this let alone state it to be true. You are so far out on a limb you should stop sawing. Regards Dave
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Post by wild on Mar 4, 2017 17:21:40 GMT -6
Hi Dave Did Benteen know that the situation was so serious as to warrent the abandoning of his mission?
You are free to point out where I have erred in any or all of my observations re Benteen's performance. I have not seen anything resembling a refutation as yet.
Are officers in the Irish Army required to rigidly obey orders with no latitude to use their training and common sense to accomplish their missions?How did halting his battalion without informing Custer accomplish his mission?
Accusing Benteen of betrayal is a canard made with whole cloth. I am dumbfounded that you would believe this let alone state it to be true. You are so far out on a limb you should stop The halting of the battalion without informing Custer was betrayal. Leaving his post without informing Reno was betrayal.
Cheers Richard
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Post by dave on Mar 4, 2017 19:58:19 GMT -6
Richard As much as I enjoy discussing the LBH with you I sadly feel that I, Br'er Rabbit, am facing Ole Br'er Fox and his Tar-Baby. No matter what is presented or suggested we return to the same ole screed that Benteen did everything wrong at the LBH and caused Custer's demise.
You accused him of betrayal, because he sensibly realized he could not reach Custer and/or support his command. The man used his brains to analyze the situation using his combat experience instead of a willy-nilly rush to death and immortality.
His second charge of betrayal, by you, for leaving his post without Reno's permission is a stretch of imagination. Reno's condition soon after Benteen's arrival until late that evening is well documented as not being a coherent leader and the vacuum of leadership was filled by your "hero." Weir's sally toward the north caused Benteen to follow him and order a retreat covered by Edgerly. How in the world can you accuse him of betrayal? Regards Dave
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 5, 2017 4:49:12 GMT -6
Wild, Dave,
I am enjoying your exchanges, kind of like UFC(Ultimate Fun/Feuding Championship). I must confess in this bout/topic I am pulling for Dave, However Wild has stamina, is an excellent counter puncher/kicker, and he can bob and weave with the best of them. Dave if you get him down, don't let him up, you will have to twist and wrestle him to the end, for the ref to call it in your favor. If this was standard boxing you could win on points, but even there Wild's tactic could be rope a dope through the middle rounds to tire you out. Touch the keys and may the best man win!
Regards, Tom
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Post by wild on Mar 5, 2017 6:41:49 GMT -6
Hi Tom It's not over until the fat lady sings Take care Cheers.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 5, 2017 7:03:47 GMT -6
Every episode of US history has it's iconic battle....Bunker Hill ,Alamo,Gettysburg,Midway, Bastogne and for the conquest of the West there is the Little Big Horn. But there is a problem ; the battle has no redeeming features rather it is defined by incompetance ,drunken cowardice and betrayal. Well the folks will not countinance this ; we need a hero ;step forward Capt Benteen. Elevate a crossing of paths to saving , doing nothing to calming the situation, deserting post to a recce,disobeying orders to taking best available decision.and we have our cool clean hero. The other thread " the real Benteen" did not take a close look at his performance confining itself to his private life and character. What I have done is to run the tactical rule over his contribution during the period... oblique left to retreat from Weir Point and found that there are issues to address. Hi AZ Apologies I should have said AZ has even made a lenghty case against the need for communication with the pack train.This issue is not a stand alone issue he also did not inform Custer that he had halted. And you still have not answered the question. I asked for a clarification and you have still not answered that question. Here it is again: Are you asking about a choice that accomplish the same mission and would be something expected to be done by reasonable officers in the same circumstance?
At that point he could see whether his battalion moving forward was the best choice or did the pack train need more attention.What has this got to do with not sending back vital intell to the pack train? There is no point in you making up excuses when you have posted that Benteen was applying the standards of an incompetent [as per the colonel] Best Wishes Richard It's how decisions are made and has nothing to do with excuses. Make the best available decision and live with. Sit around doing nothing would need an excuse.
Regards
Steve
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Post by wild on Mar 5, 2017 7:56:49 GMT -6
Hi Dave
No Benteen was not responsible for Custer's dimise.
Did Benteen know that Custer had placed a battalion so as to cover and reel in his battalion [ Benteen's]?
Did Benteen know that Custer had set in train an operation which depended on his arrival [ Benteen's]
Cheers Richard
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Post by wild on Mar 5, 2017 7:59:58 GMT -6
Hi AZ
Make the best available decision and live with it Did Weir make the best available decision?
Why were all Benteen's best available decisions of the negative variety re the mission?
Cheers Richard
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 5, 2017 12:56:33 GMT -6
Hi AZ Make the best available decision and live with itDid Weir make the best available decision? Why were all Benteen's best available decisions of the negative variety re the mission? Cheers Richard Richard I think if I believe Weir he never talked with Reno and decided to go look for himself without his company. I think someone should have been doing that. So that is good decision. Do you think Edgerly lied? Did Edgerly make the best decision? I disagree that Benteen's decisions were mission negatives. The pack train did exactly what the mission required so Benteen was freed up to arrive in time to support Reno on the Hill. After that point Reno was second in command of the regiment. Regards Steve
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Post by wild on Mar 5, 2017 14:58:07 GMT -6
Hi AZ
I think if I believe Weir he never talked with Reno and decided to go look for himself without his company. I think someone should have been doing that. So that is good decision And by the same token other unit commanders could undertake similar decisions in the same manner at the same time.?
I disagree that Benteen's decisions were mission negatives. The pack train did exactly what the mission required so Benteen was freed up to arrive in time to support Reno on the Hill Benteen had no hand act or part in advising the pack train as to the mission, alteration in chain of command,navagation or urgency. That the train arrived safely is no thanks to him but to Mathey. It is but a small chore of staff work which Benteen failed to carry out. Let me ask you what would it have cost Benteen to have kept the train posted?
Best Wishes Richard
PS It is not just one issue but we also see this indifference in Benteen making no attempt to inform Custer nor Reno.
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Post by benteen on Mar 5, 2017 15:05:18 GMT -6
Richard Benteen's character has all to do with his actions at the LBH. Regards Dave Dave, I realize it is a movie, but in "Patton" I want to take you to the scene where Rommel is talking to one of his aids. He asks him about Patton and the aid starts to tell him about Pattons military life. Rommell stops him and says NO tell me about the man.He wanted to know about Pattons character not military accomplishments. So it would appear that if true Rommel agrees with your opinion on Benteen. Be Well Dan
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