|
Post by tubman13 on Dec 21, 2016 7:02:40 GMT -6
Best wishes to you as well, Richard, and to all.
Regards, Tom
|
|
|
Post by benteen on Dec 21, 2016 14:27:10 GMT -6
Bruce,
In addition to Richards post, I do believe that Custer planned to attack at Ford D. However he was going to do it with all 5 Companies. He was not going to leave 3 companies behind for any reason and attack this small city of 8-10 thousand people with just over 90 men. It makes no sense to me. But, of course this is just my opinion.
Be Well Dan
|
|
|
Post by benteen on Dec 21, 2016 14:32:18 GMT -6
Folks,
I join Tom and Richard in wishing you all my best wishes this holiday season and always.
Richard...Good to see you back my old friend.
Be Well Dan
|
|
|
Post by wild on Dec 22, 2016 10:17:01 GMT -6
Many happy returns Dan.
And agree that dropping off units makes no military sense. I also think that the broken terrain reduced visibility resulting in Custer losing sight of the many approaching hostile bands. It also fragmented his column and allowed the Indians to close up on him. I would think Dan that he was looking at his attack options rather than at a specific ford as he would, at that point have had no idea of the existance of Ford D. What were his other options? Possibly to have taken a position North of the Village and await the arrival of Terry. To actually reach LSH and make a stand there. To break contact with the Indians and circle back towards Reno/Benteen. Could he possibly have thought he could hold a 1000 yard ridge with 200+ men?
As regards the gap between Custer and Keogh I think the reason for this is the same as the reason for the gap between Keogh and Calhoun ; enemy cutting up of the column.
All the best Richard
|
|
|
Post by benteen on Dec 22, 2016 13:47:03 GMT -6
I would think Dan that he was looking at his attack options rather than at a specific ford as he would, at that point have had no idea of the existance of Ford D. Richard, Good post. However, if I may tweek it a little as to this statement. I think that since Custer had Mitch Boyer with him who( Gray considered the best scout since Jim Bridger) that Boyer may have told him of another crossing in the vacinity of the North end of the Village (Which we call Ford D) and that there is a possibility that Custer did know where he was going. Be Well Dan
|
|
|
Post by Colt45 on Dec 22, 2016 14:27:33 GMT -6
I would agree, Dan, that Custer probably knew of a crossing in the area called ford D. I also think he took all 5 companys down there with the intention of getting across and hitting the village from the north. He probably tried to cross at two different spots with a company each, only to be repelled, where E and F then retired to the Cemetery Ridge area, C, I, and L retired back to battle ridge extension, LSH area, and battle ridge past the gap.
After a short delay at CR, he decides to go back where he came from, in bounds, by sending L south, then C, then I. L, C, and I would have provided cover for E and F as they pulled back. The problem was he should not have waited at all, as it gave the hostiles enough time to hit L in the area of Calhoun Hill at the same time they hit E and F in the front and from the south and north. E was pushed toward deep ravine, F was forced back to LSH, and I was caught on 3 sides as they were attempting to get back south, probably to the rally point of LNC. C, having arrived behind L, probably by only a few minutes, sees the open right flank, and tries to cover it, only to get surprised by the bad folks coming off GGR and from the coulee connecting to deep ravine. All this happened at the same time, which spoiled the orderly retreat for all and turned it into each company fighting on its own in their final positions.
|
|
|
Post by benteen on Dec 22, 2016 17:28:52 GMT -6
I would agree, Dan, that Custer probably knew of a crossing in the area called ford D. I also think he took all 5 companys down there with the intention of getting across and hitting the village from the north. He probably tried to cross at two different spots with a company each, only to be repelled, where E and F then retired to the Cemetery Ridge area, C, I, and L retired back to battle ridge extension, LSH area, and battle ridge past the gap. After a short delay at CR, he decides to go back where he came from, in bounds, by sending L south, then C, then I. L, C, and I would have provided cover for E and F as they pulled back. The problem was he should not have waited at all, as it gave the hostiles enough time to hit L in the area of Calhoun Hill at the same time they hit E and F in the front and from the south and north. E was pushed toward deep ravine, F was forced back to LSH, and I was caught on 3 sides as they were attempting to get back south, probably to the rally point of LNC. C, having arrived behind L, probably by only a few minutes, sees the open right flank, and tries to cover it, only to get surprised by the bad folks coming off GGR and from the coulee connecting to deep ravine. All this happened at the same time, which spoiled the orderly retreat for all and turned it into each company fighting on its own in their final positions. Colt 45, Sir, with minor differences as to which company was where, you and other knowledgeable members have presented a pretty good case for a North to South battle flow. However, there is a known fact that I dont believe this scenario covers. When Capt Weir arrived at the point named after him, he said he saw warriors shooting at objects on the ground. We know what those objects were.I believe that that meant that Keoghs battalion was down. (I know there is disagreement that Keogh actually commanded Cos I C L, but I will call them that for the purpose of my opinion) If Cos E-F were covering the other 3 as they fled South, and it was a North to South battle flow, then that would mean that E-F would have been over-run first.If that were the case then the warriors would have kept coming South at Reno/Benteen. But they didnt. They headed back North. Why would they do that. The threat in the North is over, Cos E-F and Custer are dead. Now that they have destroyed Keogh, Reno/Benteen are the only threat left. Yet they went away from them to the North. Be Well Dan
|
|
|
Post by tubman13 on Dec 22, 2016 18:03:37 GMT -6
Dan, Suppose C, L, I, in that order moved south to open the way. I am going to let others explain. You have seen some other threads and posts that explain the movements. Colt's are among the best. He not only is talking the talk but, to a large degree has walked the walk.
Regards, Tom
Regards, Tom
|
|
|
Post by wild on Dec 22, 2016 18:13:07 GMT -6
Hello Robb
Hi Dan Point taken and just to talk it through.......if he knows there is a ford there, that underminds the North recce theory? Then there follows two possibilities 1 He does not reach the Ford or 2 He reaches it and is repelled. I feel the the final positions of the companies does not support a retreat from the ford. Nor do I think there was a fighting organised retreat as detailed by Colt45 So we are left with the destruction of an attempt to reach ford D. Whatcha tink ? Best Wishes Richard
|
|
|
Post by wild on Dec 22, 2016 18:19:10 GMT -6
Hi Tom An organised fighting retreat requires coordination timing and control which Custer could not provide and an enemy advancing from one direction. Custer's advance was open to interdiction along its entire lenght from every degree of the compass. Cheers Richard
Ps organisation requires time which Custer was fresh out of.
|
|
|
Post by tubman13 on Dec 22, 2016 19:00:38 GMT -6
Richard,
This scenario makes GAC look much smarter, he knew of the northern fords, via Boyer, who knew Sitting Bill. he was very familiar with the area. This was not a recce, but an attempted attack or an attempt to corral non combatants. GAC was punched in the nose at the fords. The lead became the rear the rear became the lead. The stop on Cemetery Ridge was an attempt to organize, to little too late. C, I,& L returned the way they had come, east of the ridge, were cut off, and cut down. Maybe!
Regards, Tom
|
|
|
Post by Colt45 on Dec 22, 2016 19:22:08 GMT -6
Dan, What Weir saw was the mopping up of the remnants of L and C, most likely. I don't recall being able to see the swale where I company fell from Weir point, but maybe you can. It's been a while since I was at the battleground. In any event, The warriors leaving the Reno fight had enough time to cross at ford B and move into the coulee and Henryville areas, well before Weir reached Weir point. I think Fred's timings will validate that. At the same time Weir observed them shooting into the ground, E and F were probably already destroyed, or were in the final stages of destruction. I believe that C and L fell about about the same time as E, and that F and I fell very shortly thereafter.
I company most likely was hit from 3 side while mounted, hence the markers the way they are, meaning the fighters that finished off C and L were moving north toward I company and the fighters that finished off E company probably came through the gap to hit I company from the west, and the east side hostiles hit them from the east. While I was getting hit, F probably had made it to LSH where they fell about the same time as I or shortly thereafter. All this could easily have happened within an hour timeframe, beginning after Custer was repulsed at ford D.
|
|
|
Post by benteen on Dec 22, 2016 21:03:15 GMT -6
Tom, Richard, Colt 45, Gentlemen, Mr Rossi and I are deeply into the Giant game. I will certainly give you the courtesy of your responses of your fine post tomorrow, the time of which depends on wheather they win or loose Be Well Dan
|
|
|
Post by tubman13 on Dec 23, 2016 7:06:52 GMT -6
Sorry Dan!
|
|
|
Post by fred on Dec 23, 2016 9:31:31 GMT -6
Colt, This picture was taken from Weir Point and if you look closely, you can see the newer-planted trees in the national cemetery and the visitors center. They are on the far ridge. This is about as good a shot as you will see of Calhoun Hill, Battle Ridge, and Finley-Fickle Ridge. I wish you and your family a very Merry Christmas... ... and to everyone here, the same. A Merry and Holy Christmas to each of you and to those you love. Very best wishes, Fred.
|
|