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Post by Yan Taylor on Jul 18, 2019 13:49:37 GMT -6
I believe Custer was shot at Medicine Tail Coulee by White Cow Bull. He was crossing the river to attack the village and was shot and knocked off his horse that had 4 white hooves. The only horse that had those hooves. White Cow Bull said that only 10-12 indians were covering this crossing. Not enough to stop 3 companies and the general staff from entering the village unless Custer was shot and knocked off his horse. White Man Runs Him, Goes Ahead, and Hairy Mocassin tell the same story as White Cow Bull. With Custer in the water the battalion stopped while two soldiers got off their horses (probably Tom and Boston Custer) and put the General back on his horse. I imagine that Tom Custer ordered the retreat to the high ground (Last Stand Hill) for fear that George might die if they went any further. The top of the hill was approximately 30 feet in diameter. Six horses were shot to form a barrier around the top to hide behind. The General's body was found by trooper Jacob Adams. He described two gun shot wounds on Custer's body, one to his left chest just below his heart and one to his left temple. The wound to his temple had blood coming out of it and running into his mouth. That means that Custer was still alive when he received this wound probably by Boston or Cook. There is just too many people telling the same story for this to be not true. It explains a lot. Hello ottertki, To be honest, if the battalion tried to cross at ford B resulting in GAC getting shot, also the whole battalion retreating up to battle ridge and fighting delaying actions with the HQ plus F, forming a cordon of dead horses to shield a dying Custer, then how come soldiers were seen around ‘Willys Bend’ and the northern fords? Why too was E Company hanging around cemetery ridge. Surly if this happened like you said, then wouldn’t this mean the end of all offensive actions? So no ford D or any other move north after LSH? Yan
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Post by herosrest on Jul 24, 2019 4:21:44 GMT -6
I agree with the general consensus which says that had Custer been shot at ford B, then the logical thing to do would be for the command to pull back towards Reno and Benteen, and then decide what to do. The idea of them having to drag a dead or dying man all the way up to battle ridge is ridiculous. Oh and by the way, we've been through this business about Custer managing to survive either wound for any amount of time many many times before, but expert opinion say, and I believe them, that he wouldn't have survived either wound for more than a matter of minutes.
having said that, I suppose its just possible that Custer was shot down at ford D, that would help explain the delay on Cemetery Ridge, in that that might the first defensible spot where they could attend to him.
One final point, interestingly, there are accounts of a man being shot either in the river or close by, at both fords, so I wonder if we are talking about one event, at one ford, which has become confused over the years.
Shan Confusion is the battle's middle name at this, and for a very long time. Hopefully it may some day be renamed to reflect this. The battle at Confused Fords along Greasy Grass, or such. Indeed, several soldiers were shot in the river during incidents from the retreat in the valley, on through to water carriers below Reno Hill. It may have seemed to Indians that James Watson was shot and killed as he tried to cross into the Minnieconjou Camp with Peter Thompson. A wounded soldier was found in the water and drowned by women. Ree scouts recovered several bodies from the water on the 27th June. I believe that one unfortunate was pinned under his horse when it was shot dead in the water. There were at least several deaths in and around the water and this includes both LT's lost during Reno's retreat and particularly Hodgson. Drifting along with this tide and bearing in mind the regard in which Custer's wife was held; I have some problems with the 'official' version of his condition when found on the 27th. Gunshot wound to the head..... hmmm. Tradition gives that a knitting awl or some such implement link was used to improve his hearing. So, gunshot to the head or spike through the brain? Tough one, isn't it. What we can say is that a serious chest or shoulder wound meant it was unlikely that the Lt. Col. was moved any distance afterwards and particularly if a doctor was at hand. Therefore, Custer was shot where his body was found; or, he died and was carried along tied to his mount to prevent capture of the body; or, he was wounded and left behind (unlikely but possible), or, his body was mis-identified or never found. Those present were telling fairy stories. Protecting Custer's memory for his wife's sake was an important nobility undertaken with aplomb and guile. I understand that buried away in the record is desecration by urination and probably worse. It was what it was and the Cheyenne in particular, hated the soldiers and revenge was at hand.
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Post by custermania on Mar 22, 2021 18:51:05 GMT -6
I do think Custer was shot early. Rather it in the river or elsewhere it doesn’t matter as much. Custer was the only one who wanted to be there. Even Tom tried to talk him out of out it. Custer would of known the only way to win and survive is get into the village. He imo also would of known he didn’t even need to capture them. It is said they ran west pretty much all together. If Custer could of got in between the woman and children no way the Indians would of shot at the woman. Custer was always in front from the time he left. He always was attacking no matter what. Plus he was in debt and trouble with president. I believe he was shot early but still alive with chest wound. I believe 20 minute pause was to get him looked at.
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 23, 2021 5:08:37 GMT -6
If shot at Ford B,where was the 20 minute pause? Why continue further north? Was that chest wound enough to take him out of actual command? If GAC was the only one who wanted to be there, after th wounding ,why did they not return south toward known support?
So many questions, sorry.
Regards, Tom
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Post by herosrest on Mar 23, 2021 5:36:16 GMT -6
This is a scenario which can be made sense of but there are several scenarios. If you go with the E.S. Curtis research (1905-1908) then, the halt was on the mouth of Deep Coulee around Greasy Grass Hill and the Realbird crossing. Cheyenne accounts give an officer shot there and then the movement away from the river following on. A 20 minute delay plays into the retreat from the valley and those engaging the AGM battalion, departing against CEFIL battalion along the bluffs east of the river and cutting the regiment in half. This explains the CEFIL battalion movement onto west flank Deep Coulee and destruction on Battle Ridge. That's a quick and dirty, disorganised and extremely chaotic ending which was completed by the time Weir reached his peak. We know Reno did not hear Custer's gunfire in 1879 and he obviously missed the fat lady's aria, as well.
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logan
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Post by logan on Mar 23, 2021 6:15:49 GMT -6
Custer always led from the front, he was very visible to all, including the Indians, so in much the same way as a trooper trying to ‘’take out’ a chief, or prominent Indian to cause disarray, halt or delay an attack, though Custer was likely shot early due to being at the head rather than specifically targeted.
The man believed he was immortal, it’s not too difficult to consider he was one of the first men to be injured, and it wasn’t exactly like the charges he did in the Civil War.
Think this was covered in a book I read a few years back called ‘Custer Vindicated’
Any time delay will be the disruption this caused, the plan of attack was in Custer’s own head, the men would’ve been shocked that he had been hit, they didn’t know what to do.
I remember debates on this point, argument being in order to prevent Custer being blamed for the defeat, it wouldn’t be his fault if he was wounded early and played no part in the decision-making thereafter, saying if he hadn’t been injured, the plan would’ve worked.
By removing his input from the equation, it was someone else that must be blamed.
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Post by noggy on Mar 23, 2021 9:04:05 GMT -6
If shot at Ford B,where was the 20 minute pause? Why continue further north? Was that chest wound enough to take him out of actual command? If GAC was the only one who wanted to be there, after th wounding ,why did they not return south toward known support? So many questions, sorry. Regards, Tom You know, people who are killed while moving may still move a little after death, like headless chicken do. Maybe the dead GAC just rode out of the river and up to LSH where he collapsed? To be serious, nothing about GAC being shot at Ford B really makes sense to me. It could have been any given officer shot at ford B, or maybe GAC was shot at Ford D and from there brought to LSH. Or...bla bla. Noggy
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Post by noggy on Mar 23, 2021 9:04:42 GMT -6
Custer always led from the front, he was very visible to all, Tell that to Reno. Noggy
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logan
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Post by logan on Mar 23, 2021 9:49:02 GMT -6
Noggy
Yes, I should have said visible to those who wanted to see him, as for Reno, I guess his opinion was ‘out of sight out of mind‘
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kenny
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Post by kenny on Mar 23, 2021 14:37:55 GMT -6
If Custer was shot at the Ford? They would had stay put, until he was stable to move. Then they would move away from the village, toward the east instead of north.
Base on that they went north, Custer wasn't hit. The bullet must of came inches of hitting him, costing him to fall off his horse, but didn't hit him.
Regardless of bodies being found in and near the river in Custer area. Some Indians reports stated that the remaining troops fought hand and hand using their rifles as clubs, from Last Stand Hill to the river, up the river, down the river, on dry land on both side of the river. Some went into Deep Ravine and got trapped, tried to climb out, but got kill in doing so. Some made a stand on what is known as Finley Hill, then made a run to the south, got cut down. The remainder lost their footing, and got sweep down the river and some tried to hide in the river.
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 23, 2021 15:08:48 GMT -6
Help,I've fallen and can't reach my beer.
Regards Tom
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kenny
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Post by kenny on Mar 23, 2021 16:40:28 GMT -6
Help,I've fallen and can't reach my beer. Regards Tom Reno was reported to be drunk. Some Indian accounts stated that some of Custer men reacted like they were drunk.
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kenny
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Post by kenny on Mar 23, 2021 18:10:43 GMT -6
I've posted in this tread that 1st.Lt. Smith was the one that got shot at the ford. lbha.proboards.com/thread/1187/custer-shot-fordIt was also stated by another poster, posted that Terry men examine the ford, finding that it was impossible to cross at the ford. None of the less. Someone did got shot, I don't think it was Lt.Col. Custer himself. If Custer was shot. They would not continue fighting, they would have withdraw far enough to a safe area out of danger. Then whom ever was now in charge now, would send a message to Reno and Benteen of what happen and where to rendezvous. They would also send a message to General Terry as well.
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logan
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Post by logan on Mar 23, 2021 18:53:40 GMT -6
Why would they not continue fighting ? They were committed, they had to maintain an aggressive stance, else the Indians would have seen this as a weakness. You do not turn your back on a force engaged unless you want them to come right for you, like hunting buffalo. There was no such thing as a safe area now, as far as was known Reno was firing on the camp and Benteen was on a scout to the left, unaware of anything, or at least, what he was willing to accept was the situation. A battle needs to continue when engaged, no matter who was killed. leadership devolves to the next in command. Why do you think so many superior officers died on Last Stand Hill ? They were trying to make a unanimous decision on tactics in unison, not as individual officers. There is an old phrase - too many chefs spoil the broth - lack of agreement and delays meant troopers fell as many officers tried to rectify the event created by Custer’s wounding. Last Stand Hill was now the Command Centre, likely runners trying to unify companies as the situation unfolded, but things were happening too fast. The End.
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Post by shan on Mar 24, 2021 8:34:45 GMT -6
We've talked about this many a time over the years, and as I've posted before, a friend of mine, whose job it is to try and decide the cause of death, mostly in regards to fatal gunshots, has told me, that after having read up about Custer's wounds, in his opinion, either shot would have killed him almost instantly. Yes, he said, the body might have survived for several minutes, but the man himself would have been totally unaware of what was happening around him due to shock.
Now, as far as the arguments about what the command would have done in such circumstances, well, as far as I can see, they tend to revolve around the military rules that have been laid down if such a circumstances were to occur. Well, maybe so, but then this was Custer, and we have to remember that some of the people who were present were his relatives, in which case, one can't help wondering if the decisions might have been a bit different on the day.
In any case, I don't happen to believe that he was hit and killed at MTF, maybe up at ford D, if that ever happened. For if so, then that would certainly help make sense of the supposed 20 minute wait that was said to have occurred on Cemetery ridge, a wait that might have been due to the fact that a doctor was having to attend to a stricken Custer, but there again, I think not. Just ask yourself why: when either wound was fatal, and the situation around you was becoming more dire by the minute, would you spend your time attending to a dead man, and then have arrange to transport his body up to a position that was virtually un-defendable? It doesn't make any sense does it? No,as far as I'm concerned, Custer was killed up on LSH where his body was found
One last thing. And maybe this is happening on the other board, and if so, excuse me. A number of people seem to be mistaking White Cow Bull with another man named White Bull. They are two different men, the first is the man who claims to have shot someone, possibly an officer down at MTF, whilst the second, is the man who had a near fatal wrestling match with an officer in the vicinity of LSH, who others claim was Custer.
Shan
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