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Post by montrose on Aug 22, 2016 19:10:53 GMT -6
view.officeapps.live.com/op/view.aspx?src=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.armystudyguide.com%2Fcontent%2Fbm%257Edoc%2Fmilitary-decision-making-.pptI am not sure if all can open this. It summarizes the Military Decision Making Process. The briefing is at Brigade level, which is equivalent to a regiment. 1. The critical step of an engagement is the opening mission analysis, that culminates in the restated mission. Understand this is the tactical mission of the unit for the fight at hand. It is tactical, not strategic or operational. 2. Situation.Note you start with situation. Enemy is believed to be in this strength, at that location, conducting specified activities. Then friendly: what forces do I have available. AT LBH, enemy had a large centralized village in LBH valley, with an estimated 1500 warriors and 10000 horses. Horses mostly west of the village. Enemy is surprised and not ready for an engagement. Friendly forces are the 7th Cavalry regiment, reinforced with scout detachment and pack train. 3. What do you do now, patrol leader? (An infamous phrase in Ranger school and SFQC. The point I am trying to make is that the leader must identify what his objective is for that engagement. As previously discussed, the US strategic and operational goals do not require total annihilation of the Indians. Limited attacks are the norm for the Indian wars. SO what are reasonable objectives for 26 Jun 76? -Disrupt pony herds. Kill or capture as many as you can to eliminate Indian mobility. Destruction of herds will destroy the ability of the Indians to survive off a reservation. -Burn the village, or as much as you can. The village contains tons of meat for the coming winter. Destroy or damage this, and they starve. -Destroy an outlying village. This means finding a small piece of the Indian force, that you can overwhelm. Poor Indian C4I means slow response from larger forces. A destruction of small Indian elements is believed to have disproportionate moral effects on Indian tribes. -Conduct an attack to block Indian withdrawal to south, with the intent to drive them north towards Terry. Even if you lack the combat power to take the main village, you meet tactical advantage by denying them the southern use of LBH valley. -Destroy the main village. This would win the war in one blow. -Critical sidebar.Please note that the Indians were not able to take down the village and prepare for movement during the battle. Some lodges got dropped, but at no point were the Indians able to load the village on animals and be capable of movement. I see a lot of electrons die on the assumption that GAC and US elements believed the Indians would flee. If they fled, they would abandon all lodges and supplies and would be starving within 14 days. If they were that stupid, let them run. But if the village was not broken down and loaded for movement, the Indians MUST stand and fight. If you watch what the enemy does, you know what they are doing. Watching what they do, and assuming it means the exact opposite of what they are doing, means you are insane or incompetent; or both. -I am sure we can develop further Courses of Action of what GAC could achieve on 26 Jun. My point is options range from killing them all total victory, to various limited objectives that still meet US strategic and operational intent.
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Post by wild on Aug 23, 2016 1:28:46 GMT -6
1....Custers mission was not like the Washita at all. At the Washita he was ordered to destroy the Indian village, at the LBH it was not. Terry wanted the combined forces to trap the Indians hammer and anvil style. In relation to Dan's above. Hammer and anvil is a combined operation with precise if simple coordinated roles. Terry's "orders" may have hinted at this but giving Custer freedom of action undermined such a tactic. Terry's force was in a strategic role ; Custer could make use of him if required. I find myself in HR's camp on the matter of Custer's options; there was but one and that was to attack.Only by defeating the warriors ,subduing them could they be driven onto Terry . Could be argued that Custer's timing was spot on. Best Wishes Dan.
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Post by chardvc on Oct 12, 2016 15:28:05 GMT -6
In which case Dan why did he fanny around looking for ways into the village. Why not concentrate his command, and by default his firepower, and keep the NA's at an attacking arm's length? At the same time making contact with Terry to tell him what he was doing.
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chart
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Post by chart on Dec 29, 2016 5:57:20 GMT -6
HI everyone. I'm a newbie and so glad I found you all. No more sitting on YouTube all alone searching and watching blurry grainy clips and documentaries that by their quality were taken on the actual day of the battle. I am in Australia so its a very lonely life being a Custer fanatic and finding any person who even knows anything of the battle other than Errol Flynn also died at the LBH. So thanks a million love meeting you all. Just want to add to this thread if I may,that I believe something did happen at Ford B and in this thread I see a lot of theory whether he even attempted. In all accounts I have seen or read over they years by NA, there is often confusion of the battle and as one on here said, it would have been impossible for any one person to have seen the entire battle and movements and locations. However one thing I have noticed was that most NA confirm Custer did attempt to cross at Ford B. Many that were engaged with Reno said they heard the fight was now further back and broke contact with Reno to head up to that area. They must have had a specific or general location to head to as I cannot see Custer riding along the East bank heading up towards Ford D as a location. He would have been on the move so therefore warriors would hardly race of to ride along the river parallel to a Cavalry group. Then there were the actual NA who were at Ford B also confirming an attempt and 2 soldiers being shot out of the saddle and the account of one being the flag carrier and the other described being Mitch Boyeur. Boyeur was with Custer at all times and again accounts were given of Boyeur being hit and falling into the river and left. He apparently had been shot in the spine and somehow was found on the river edge East Side at Ford B and begged to be killed, which by NA accounts he was. I also believe that his vest was found at the area of Ford B The main percentage of NA interviewed over the years may have changed and enhanced their stories but all that I have read , stuck to the basic account that the fighting began when soldiers arrived and attempted to Cross the river at MTC Ford B. This was the start of the end . The main battle that ended on LSH. All said that a large force did attempt a crossing and it was at Ford B.
Far to many to have been mistaken, and although they may have been wrong, inaccurate or confused in regards to the actual battle overall, I really don't think they would be wrong or confused about virtually hundreds of troops crossing a river at a certain point. Remember all these NA knew and told exact details of Reno , where he was, what skirmish lines he had, his retreat into timber, even details of how and where he crossed back over losing men. So if they gave accurate details of the Reno battle, I tend to think they were dead right about where Custer's troops tried to cross. It was those NA that left of from Reno and headed to a certain point. Ford B I believe.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Dec 29, 2016 6:25:58 GMT -6
Hi Chart, yes those Indians who fought Reno could give details of what happened in the valley, because they were there, and they also broke off their engagement with Reno to get back to face a new threat.
That being said, but many accounts say that the soldiers never reached the river, so how can you account for them, you cannot pick you accounts and say this is true and that is not.
Many of the returning warriors arrived back and saw no soldiers at the ford, but they would have seen them on the high ground, so who is say that these men were returning south after moving north? Remember, there is no evidence of a fight at ford B.
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chart
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Post by chart on Dec 29, 2016 6:37:08 GMT -6
Perhaps I ought to mention that we discussed whether Custer was killed or wounded scenario several times way back when. At the time I managed to get the opinion of a friend who works as a Pathologist over in Washington state. He specialises in gunshots wounds, and he told me that after years of seeing such wounds, given the trajectory of the bullets that struck Custers body, he would have died almost immediately from either wound, or if not immediately, then very soon after. When I pressed him on that, he said he thought it would be a matter of minutes. As far as I can remember, I think the general consensus was that if he had indeed been shot at the ford, then he would have been dead by the time they got to Calhoun. Aside from that, I wonder if anyone can answer to the question I posed awhile back. What would army protocol at the time be for dealing with a wounded officer, i.e Smith, having been wounded at ford B? Being an officer, would they have been obliged to take him along with them on the move back up to Calhoun, and then onto ford D if that's where they went? If so, wouldn't that have been both an inconvenience, especially as speed was of the essence, as well as being very uncomfortable for the man himself. The fact that he was found on LSH, possible indicates that he hadn't been that badly wounded down at the ford. Your pathologist friend is undoubtedly correct and if I am not mistaken-- though I would have to look it up-- others said the same thing if the wounded man were George Custer, based on Custer's wounds as found. That is another reason I am sure the wounded officer was not Custer. Another thing: these Indians were no dummies. Despite the uniform variations, they knew an officer when they saw one. Smith never wore boots... or at least not there he didn't. He preferred brogans worn with white spats. He also had a 1 1/2" yellow stripe down the side of his pants. If he wore his buckskin shirt-- and I doubt he did-- then he had his blue "fireman's" shirt on... and visible. He also wore a large white felt hat, further setting him apart from the appearance of his men. Indians would have seen all that and would have keyed in on him. If he was issuing orders-- and why wouldn't he be?-- then that is just further indication of a leadership role. As for military protocol with a wounded man, officer or otherwise, you simply do not leave him behind, especially in those circumstances. (Remember Eagerly's consternation 'til the day he died regarding Vincent Charley; Edgerly's relationship with Weir was never the same again.) LT Sturgis, alone, would have seen to that. It is also quite probable-- not, "possible," but probable-- the wound was not quite as debilitating as Custer's side-entry wound. It could have been severe enough to incapacitate Smith, though maybe not immediately. Remember, they were at the ford around 3 PM and the battle ended at 4:40. It could have taken Smith that amount of time to die... unlike Custer's wound which would have been fairly quick. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Dec 29, 2016 11:48:02 GMT -6
First of all, "Chart," let me welcome you to these boards. I hope you remain and stay interested and contribute, questions and answers. Next, Happy New Year. Now let me disassemble your post. Just want to add to this thread if I may,that I believe something did happen at Ford B and in this thread I see a lot of theory whether he even attempted.... However one thing I have noticed was that most NA confirm Custer did attempt to cross at Ford B. Many that were engaged with Reno said they heard the fight was now further back and broke contact with Reno to head up to that area. I do not know what your are reading, but the accounts I have read, viz., all of them, I come away with a completely different reading. Again, ask yourself a couple questions: Would a mere handful of warriors at the ford crossing be able to stave off an attempt by close to 100 troops led by the likes of George Custer? Second, Why would Custer force a crossing while leaving close to 60% of his command a mile back? Does any of that make sense to you? As for the Reno fight, again, I do not know what you are reading, but Reno was already atop Reno Hill, greeting Benteen, when Custer reached Ford B. So, like so much more with this fight, it is a matter of timing and it is clear to me-- and please do not take this as anything but a constructive comment-- you are completely unfamiliar with the timing involved with this battle. Custer was certainly not riding along the east bank of the river; he was well to the river's east. Rather than argue these points, however, may I make a suggestion? [Please forgive me, all you LBH veterans of this board...] I think, "Chart," you might be well-served by taking a good look at this book, available at this site or on Amazon... www.mcfarlandbooks.com/book-2.php?id=978-0-7864-7954-2That is complete and sheer fantasy... the entire sentence. None of that happened: neither two soldiers, nor Mitch Boyer. Where are you getting this stuff? There is not a single word of truth in that entire statement. Not one. "All"?"Hundreds"? Custer had 209 men plus himself. "Hundreds" is generally defined as more than 300... or so. Well, you certainly have more faith in the preciseness and accuracy of all those Indian accounts. I have accumulated accounts from more than 80 Indian participants and nowhere in any of those accounts can I come up with the certainly you have attached to those referring to the Reno fight. I do not know what you are reading, my friend, but whatever it is it is more fantasy than reality. I have gathered accounts from more than 260 people, at the battle, or their immediate contemporaries, and have transcribed their words into more than 47,000 modules of data, and if I cherry-picked every one of those modules I could not put together the scenarios or reach the conclusions you have reached in your post. Nonetheless, I hope you can contribute more here. People like you are needed to give our site some life. Happy New Year, Chart. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by tubman13 on Dec 29, 2016 13:32:21 GMT -6
chart,
Just for yucks, I will go for Ford D, or that area. I am not, however, sure that any of GAC's men had horses that got their hooves wet, at least not until the NA's took them back to the village as prizes.
Fred will chastise me for the Ford D crack.
Regards, Tom
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Post by herosrest on Feb 10, 2017 18:32:53 GMT -6
DucemusNew old thoughts on an old problem. B bring pacs. F.F. Victor pulled pretty much of everything known today, together in 1877 and did it extremely well. Interesting reading. Interesting book, at part II link and all of it the early data which is understanding the battle's bread and butter.
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Post by ottertki on Jul 17, 2019 9:20:58 GMT -6
I believe Custer was shot at Medicine Tail Coulee by White Cow Bull. He was crossing the river to attack the village and was shot and knocked off his horse that had 4 white hooves. The only horse that had those hooves. White Cow Bull said that only 10-12 indians were covering this crossing. Not enough to stop 3 companies and the general staff from entering the village unless Custer was shot and knocked off his horse. White Man Runs Him, Goes Ahead, and Hairy Mocassin tell the same story as White Cow Bull. With Custer in the water the battalion stopped while two soldiers got off their horses (probably Tom and Boston Custer) and put the General back on his horse. I imagine that Tom Custer ordered the retreat to the high ground (Last Stand Hill) for fear that George might die if they went any further. The top of the hill was approximately 30 feet in diameter. Six horses were shot to form a barrier around the top to hide behind. The General's body was found by trooper Jacob Adams. He described two gun shot wounds on Custer's body, one to his left chest just below his heart and one to his left temple. The wound to his temple had blood coming out of it and running into his mouth. That means that Custer was still alive when he received this wound probably by Boston or Cook. There is just too many people telling the same story for this to be not true. It explains a lot.
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Post by noggy on Jul 17, 2019 10:30:15 GMT -6
I believe Custer was shot at Medicine Tail Coulee by White Cow Bull. He was crossing the river to attack the village and was shot and knocked off his horse that had 4 white hooves. The only horse that had those hooves. White Cow Bull said that only 10-12 indians were covering this crossing. Not enough to stop 3 companies and the general staff from entering the village unless Custer was shot and knocked off his horse. White Man Runs Him, Goes Ahead, and Hairy Mocassin tell the same story as White Cow Bull. With Custer in the water the battalion stopped while two soldiers got off their horses (probably Tom and Boston Custer) and put the General back on his horse. I imagine that Tom Custer ordered the retreat to the high ground (Last Stand Hill) for fear that George might die if they went any further. The top of the hill was approximately 30 feet in diameter. Six horses were shot to form a barrier around the top to hide behind. The General's body was found by trooper Jacob Adams. He described two gun shot wounds on Custer's body, one to his left chest just below his heart and one to his left temple. The wound to his temple had blood coming out of it and running into his mouth. That means that Custer was still alive when he received this wound probably by Boston or Cook. There is just too many people telling the same story for this to be not true. It explains a lot. Hi otterki Have you read Greg Michno`s analysis of the White Cow Bull story? He told things often already known and in some instances must have been several places at the same time, since when asked about certain events he claimed to have seen most of them. It`s discussed several places in Lakota Noon, and I for one feel it more than throws doubt over the claims. I actually asked here once if any of the other people at Ford B had mentioned him (WCB name dropped who already were well known to have been there), but while they listed other shooters around the bank, WCB must have been very anonymous for a guy who among other things shot at least five troopers. Last Stand Hill is a very far stretch to carry a wounded commanding officer, don`t you think? There is high ground much nearer, both to the South and North. All the best and welcome on board, Noggy
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Post by Colt45 on Jul 17, 2019 12:37:48 GMT -6
ottertki, No one from the Indian side would have recognized Custer. He had cut his hair and was not wearing the buckskin jacket. One of his troopers reported that he had taken it off due to heat. An officer may have been wounded in the water, but it most likely was not Custer, and it certainly could not have been at the ford in MTC.
First, there is very little archeological evidence of a fight at ford B. Second, LSH is way too far from ford B to be carrying a mortally wounded man. Had Custer been hit at ford B, the next in command would have moved back toward the LNC high ground, rather than continuing with the north movement toward the end of the Indian camp.
White Cow Bull's account has been generally disregarded due to his having to have been in several places at the same time for it to ring true. So his claim that it was Custer he hit is most likely a figment of his imagination. You have to read a lot of Indian accounts to realize that it was very hard for anyone to recognize anyone else, friend or foe.
If an officer was wounded while trying to cross, that location would have been the fords (ford D) just below Cemetery Ridge and LSH. Look at John Stands in Timber's account and his map of Custer's movements. Balance that off what you get with WCB.
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Post by tubman13 on Jul 17, 2019 13:28:58 GMT -6
Noggy and Colt,
You covered that nicely, sounds to me wasted money on a voices book. Selective memory is great, when nobody else has a say,
Regards, Tom
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Post by herosrest on Jul 18, 2019 9:15:25 GMT -6
Hi otterki It isn't cut and dried and shouldn't be ruled out. Considered and professional opinion tends strongly towards the belief that Custer survived any activity near ford B or wasn't there at all and much further back from the river when the command was at Medicine Tail Coulee. There are some problems with the White Cow Bull account and we have record of plenty of soldiers shot in the river and shot off their horses. White Cow bull is not the only account which mentions Custer down near the river and a military report given at Powder River on July 4th 1876 was that Custer was shot in the bottom, which is patently not Battle Ridge or Custer's Hill. It might be Ford D if troops went there but there is absolutely no evidence of fighting and thus that idea is pure supposition in wishful thinking. The Powder River information was given by a 7th Cavalry scout during the interview of Billy Cross. These scouts left Reno Hill on the afternoon of 25th June 1876, before Reno and Benteen were besieged. One of those scouts was 'Stab' and there is record that he carried a message to Custer before joining the pony stealers and going to Powder River. At the time he joined the troops to deliver the message then he had to go at least as far as MTC. He may have travelled to ford D but that plays some really neat games with all timelines of the battle and particularly those which play loose and free with Thomas Marquis's slow fighting times. As given, this scout delivered the message and then joined the Arikara pony stealers who moved away from the bluffs opposite the Reno fight before the retreat across the river. I hope that I'm not boring you. The idea of Custer injured near the river is anethma to many of the battles students who, were broadly putting the military face to the thing and didn't admit until the 1930's that Custer may have retreated from the ford although that was the conclusion arrived by those who were there to see, in June 1876. I'll just say, that at this time and for a long time, I don't buy into the idea but do not rule it out. It is almost two miles from Ford B to Custer's Hill; it is over 1.5 miles from any of the Ford D's to Custer's Hill, so that argument ruling out ford B demolishes the ford D idea as well. For those who would persist this, then Custer was still able to ride despite a serious shoulder wound. This might explain how a Cheyenne woman knocked him off his horse during the fighting. If Custer was shot at some point before the Battle Ridge fighting then he was attended to there and then by the accompanying doctor and this would explain some of the supposed periods of inactivity whilst Reno fought in the valley but of course the source of that information insisted that Custer was stood watching Reno being assailed by hordes of Indians. If in fact Custer was shot early then command passed to Reno and a message would have been sent to him. Thus, the whole idea is a double anethma for those who believe that Reno's rear end contained light bulbs and it is severely dodged in various ways. You cannot rule it out and particularly because so many students of the battle do, whilst everyone else.... erm.... 7.6 billion people - know that he was shot. A number of the Indian accounts tell us that an officer was shot, as, or just after, the troops halted and dismounted. This was not 'at' or 'in' the river but in marching to a fording place and halting before reaching it. We don't know who that officer was or how the Indians were able to know it was an officer. It's a lovely puzzle and the type of thing which authors writing about the battle absolutely have to nail down, square away and deal with to develop their theories. One of the things which it is difficult to do is represent Custer as fluffy, stupidly moronic, cowardly or confused and drunk and this severely limits presentation of this problem. We know that he was shot and died so why is where it happened of any interest?
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Post by shan on Jul 18, 2019 10:05:40 GMT -6
I agree with the general consensus which says that had Custer been shot at ford B, then the logical thing to do would be for the command to pull back towards Reno and Benteen, and then decide what to do. The idea of them having to drag a dead or dying man all the way up to battle ridge is ridiculous. Oh and by the way, we've been through this business about Custer managing to survive either wound for any amount of time many many times before, but expert opinion say, and I believe them, that he wouldn't have survived either wound for more than a matter of minutes.
having said that, I suppose its just possible that Custer was shot down at ford D, that would help explain the delay on Cemetery Ridge, in that that might the first defensible spot where they could attend to him.
One final point, interestingly, there are accounts of a man being shot either in the river or close by, at both fords, so I wonder if we are talking about one event, at one ford, which has become confused over the years.
Shan
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