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Post by herosrest on Jan 30, 2016 5:12:22 GMT -6
DucemusI believe that Mrs Custer is sat 5th from right, dressed in black; in this image from the 1886 anniversary of the battle.
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Post by chardvc on Jan 30, 2016 5:17:03 GMT -6
Source?
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 30, 2016 7:14:52 GMT -6
Two things, first I don't think that is a 44 year old E.B. Custer and two, would the gentlemen not have provided a chair and a more central location for her.
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Post by tubman13 on Jan 30, 2016 7:15:15 GMT -6
Two things, first I don't think that is a 44 year old E.B. Custer and two, would the gentlemen not have provided a chair and a more central location for her.
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Post by herosrest on Feb 4, 2016 19:46:59 GMT -6
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Post by chardvc on Feb 5, 2016 6:13:29 GMT -6
It's simply not her.
Any casual readers please ignore this thread - it's nonsense.
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Post by Beth on Feb 5, 2016 14:26:52 GMT -6
Herosrest, I know that you have your mind made up but I want to point out a couple points to you. If the woman you believe is Mrs Custer is the only woman not wearing a hat, it can not be Mrs. Custer. Not wearing a hat is a sign that the young woman is unmarried. Mrs. Custer was a very fashionable woman, she would be wearing a hat at such a public and outdoor event. I would be willing to bet that if Libby Custer was at that event, she would be wearing clothes that were befitting Custer's widow-in mourning--fashionable mourning but in mourning. That dress is neither.
Mrs Custer would have been given a chair, probably towards the center because she would have been considered a very important guest and treated accordingly.
Also that picture was taken near Reno Hill with Reno hill survivors. Do you seriously believe Libby Custer would appear in that particular group?
Finally Libby Custer never went to the battlefield in her entire life.
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Post by tubman13 on Feb 5, 2016 15:03:00 GMT -6
HR, You can take Beth's comments to the bank, after all she is an expert shirt wearer(says so above her avatar) and very familiar with fashion. Also she agrees with chardvc and me.
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Post by dave on Feb 5, 2016 15:34:09 GMT -6
I also suspect you has worn a dress more often than rest of us. Regards Dave
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shaw
Full Member
Posts: 187
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Post by shaw on Feb 5, 2016 23:59:57 GMT -6
That is not Libbie Custer, but to prove it you're facing the same issue as the recent owner of the supposed Billy The Kid photo. To verify it he had to get proof that The Kid was there. Either written and or photographic. The photo itself was inconclusive because the face was not clearly his even with imaging enhancement.
If Libbie Custer was there ( for arguments sake ) then someone would have recorded it in writing...someplace.
In the Billy The Kid instance the location, the event, corresponding diaries and photos helped to validate the strong possibility of his presence.
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Post by herosrest on Feb 7, 2016 20:41:26 GMT -6
DucemusThere is one more photo which I need to hunt down, which is proving elusive. It is the monument view with the usual 1886 suspects, and the females. The enquiry isn't pulled out of thin air, accepted opinion is what it is, but very often, the public and private are quite far apart. 7th Cavalry post 1877, did not know Mrs Custer. FAL was over and I suspect was the reason for reticence to return to Montana. However, whilst her bio gives what it does, the reburials did not go smoothely, it leaked out almost immediately about Teeman (I assume) and human nature is what it is. If she requested privacy, it was not difficult toaccede and was in fact her story. Simple respect for the woman and if she was there, you know.......... the good Major got the treatment from a very well practiced C.O.'s wife. That is what she was and she harboured life long grudge. I reserve decision and continue an interest. There were problems that day which are record and attributed to Server. Gall and Curley were at it, and Godfrey sowed some truly unfortunate seeds.
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Post by chardvc on Feb 8, 2016 0:48:18 GMT -6
DucemusThere is one more photo which I need to hunt down, which is proving elusive. It is the monument view with the usual 1886 suspects, and the females. The enquiry isn't pulled out of thin air, accepted opinion is what it is, but very often, the public and private are quite far apart. 7th Cavalry post 1877, did not know Mrs Custer. FAL was over and I suspect was the reason for reticence to return to Montana. However, whilst her bio gives what it does, the reburials did not go smoothely, it leaked out almost immediately about Teeman (I assume) and human nature is what it is. If she requested privacy, it was not difficult toaccede and was in fact her story. Simple respect for the woman and if she was there, you know.......... the good Major got the treatment from a very well practiced C.O.'s wife. That is what she was and she harboured life long grudge. I reserve decision and continue an interest. There were problems that day which are record and attributed to Server. Gall and Curley were at it, and Godfrey sowed some truly unfortunate seeds. Sorry HR but that post makes no sense to me at all. Any chance of re-writing it so that it can be understood.
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Post by herosrest on Feb 8, 2016 6:36:48 GMT -6
Ducemus
Certainly not a problem, and I can personalise the content for your consumtion (Target it) and customise for your birthsign. As you may know, during discussions of events of the battle which initially took place on Custer's Hill as it was then known, some discontent developed with the translations given to cavalry survivors by the man running the local hotel. It isn't known if William A. Allen attended from Billings or whether the Crow tribe then settled into the modern agency to which they relkcated in 1878, from Stillwater (they were previously at Ft. Parker) sent delegates, but Curley was present. His home (log cabin) was in the valley near the river a few hundred yards below the mouth of Deep Ravine entering Little Horn river. His pony herd used to graze the battleground.
Words were spoken between Gall and Curley. Godfrey played cowboys and Indians with Gall because he didn't have sign skills and couldn't speak Hunkpapa dialect of Zioux (or any dialect) And an extremely portly Benteen had a robust time of it, as high as a lord. You know, during the train journey to the anniversary he met Sanderson on the train and gave an unusual account of the battle - still, not to many people know about it which is the way fred liked things. Now Fred Server was actually the first to discover dead on the battlefield as he flanked Terry's column ahead of Bradley along the bluffs over looking the valley. We know from Wallace at the Inquiry that Custer's mutilated remains were not found on the highest spot and were not on the highest spot. Server, ex Sgt, Company G 2nd Cavalry (Custer's regiment) gave the officers sometbing of a rough time when he tranated Gall, and Godfrey in frustration wandered off with the Sioux Chief to strole about the remains of the dead. Quite morbid.
Now Mrs. Custer may not have wanted it acknowledged that she was attending the place where her beau and life long love was treacherously abandoned in battle by the cowardly curs she would have met. Few would have known her and those few would and ever did respect her and her wishes. Edgerley, present, had been a good friend and confidante as was his wife. I'm sure things went swimmingly. Barry interviewed Gall quite early in themorning, interesting account it is, published by Burdi k with his map of the battle. One of few showing the warrior routes to attack the five companies from MTC after crossing the bluffs at Weir's heights.
So,if she was there, and l have sufficiently researched now for several years that she was, it suited all as in one and all, that it remain a secret. There are many secrets stemming from the battle, for example the regiment's flag and Reno lying to Terry about the fighting on Reno hill, unless of course Terry was in the habit of lying to Sheridan and Sherman. I was looking at the Appotomax photographs from 1865 and we forget don't we, just how young and fresh those Titans of history were. They gave Mrs Custer the table upon which the documents were signed, very special honour and i'm sure that still ire's Southern Belles of the Confederacy for ever and their love of R&B.
I don't think the Burlington had reached the valley then, the Y.F. Batchelor was making runs on the Yellowstone and Fort Custer was in its prime. There was the stagecoach and Bighorn route from Terry's Landing and Huntley, and for example W.O. Taylor and many many other ex 7th settled about the various settlements. Henry V. Guy at Pease Bottom for examlle. I think that Herendeen had given up Baker's Battleground, and tbings were starting up at the place which became Forsyth. I'm trying to remember the Crow word horse.... any ideas. It is rather important to these matters
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Post by chardvc on Feb 8, 2016 6:42:21 GMT -6
DucemusCertainly not a problem, and I can personalise the content for your consumtion (Target it) and customise for your birthsign. As you may know, during discussions of events of the battle which initially took place on Custer's Hill as it was then known, some discontent developed with the translations given to cavalry survivors by the man running the local hotel. It isn't known if William A. Allen attended from Billings or whether the Crow tribe then settled into the modern agency to which they relkcated in 1878, from Stillwater (they were previously at Ft. Parker) sent delegates, but Curley was present. His home (log cabin) was in the valley near the river a few hundred yards below the mouth of Deep Ravine entering Little Horn river. His pony herd used to graze the battleground. Words were spoken between Gall and Curley. Godfrey played cowboys and Indians with Gall because he didn't have sign skills and couldn't speak Hunkpapa dialect of Zioux (or any dialect) And an extremely portly Benteen had a robust time of it, as high as a lord. You know, during the train journey to the anniversary he met Sanderson on the train and gave an unusual account of the battle - still, not to many people know about it which is the way fred liked things. Now Fred Server was actually the first to discover dead on the battlefield as he flanked Terry's column ahead of Bradley along the bluffs over looking the valley. We know from Wallace at the Inquiry that Custer's mutilated remains were not found on the highest spot and were not on the highest spot. Server, ex Sgt, Company G 2nd Cavalry (Custer's regiment) gave the officers sometbing of a rough time when he tranated Gall, and Godfrey in frustration wandered off with the Sioux Chief to strole about the remains of the dead. Quite morbid. Now Mrs. Custer may not have wanted it acknowledged that she was attending the place where her beau and life long love was treacherously abandoned in battle by the cowardly curs she would have met. Few would have known her and those few would and ever did respect her and her wishes. Edgerley, present, had been a good friend and confidante as was his wife. I'm sure things went swimmingly. Barry interviewed Gall quite early in themorning, interesting account it is, published by Burdi k with his map of the battle. One of few showing the warrior routes to attack the five companies from MTC after crossing the bluffs at Weir's heights. So,if she was there, and l have sufficiently researched now for several years that she was, it suited all as in one and all, that it remain a secret. There are many secrets stemming from the battle, for example the regiment's flag and Reno lying to Terry about the fighting on Reno hill, unless of course Terry was in the habit of lying to Sheridan and Sherman. I was looking at the Appotomax photographs from 1865 and we forget don't we, just how young and fresh those Titans of history were. They gave Mrs Custer the table upon which the documents were signed, very special honour and i'm sure that still ire's Southern Belles of the Confederacy for ever and their love of R&B. I don't think the Burlington had reached the valley then, the Y.F. Batchelor was making runs on the Yellowstone and Fort Custer was in its prime. There was the stagecoach and Bighorn route from Terry's Landing and Huntley, and for example W.O. Taylor and many many other ex 7th settled about the various settlements. Henry V. Guy at Pease Bottom for examlle. I think that Herendeen had given up Baker's Battleground, and tbings were starting up at the place which became Forsyth. I'm trying to remember the Crow word forse.... any ideas. It is rather important to these matters Thanks - I thought there was more to it than you originally posted. She wasn't there. The photos are clearly not her.
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Post by herosrest on Feb 8, 2016 10:04:13 GMT -6
DucemusYou'll find that it was Reno who wasn't there. The remains of fallen soldiers and perhaps animals were interred from the battlefield cemetery to stone monument in 1881, cemetery status had been established in 1879 and obviously the de facto cemetery was that where the buried and unburied remains lay on the blessed soil. Handily, I can verify this on Wiki, without the leaks of course, thus: 29 January 1879: The Secretary of War first preserved the site as a U.S. National Cemetery, to protect graves of the 7th Cavalry troopers buried there. This single aspect of Little Bighorn cauaes more trouble today than all researchers and archaeologists together, put together, and rolled down Custer's Hill into any of the deep ravines which surround it. Whether or not various of the tribal histories are accepted as the way of the battle, remember that there were not more than 1,800 tepees unless families were additionally camped elsewhere. The wiciyups are irrelevant. You can put 10 people in each tepee for a significant population such as that offered by Gordon Harper, but a half of them left and moved towards Rosebud when the remaining camps moved down from their site on the east of the Little Horn above the big bend; to the site attacked by Custer on the 25th June. Yup, not only did 7th Cavalry attack the biggest camp on the Plains in living memory, probably ever - but half those present for the solstice (up to 10,000) had left a couple of days before. So, the cemetery was fenced, ie - a fence was built around it and is represented in R.B. Martial's 1891 mapping of the valley and the cemetery, for U.S. Geo one. It was variously updated over decades but established a quintessential trademark or emblem of the National Monument. 7 December 1886: The site was proclaimed National Cemetery of Custer's Battlefield Reservation to include burials of other campaigns and wars. (Wiki) This was and is of course the three sided box which defines the battleground cemetery, rather than the intended but undeveloped National one for the fallen of other campaigns. There have been several cemeteries which in modern memory and in truth that of all visitors since after the Fetterman reinterments, became confused and unrepresentative of the original cemetery with two hundred some, graves scatered about where they fell in 1876. You can see the three sided box on Marshall's map - here - Marshall - Kuhlman on a copy used by Kuhlman for annotations on the battle. It's an interesting item and revealing in a number of ways but we won't get into that. Although I doubt it, Kuhlman may have had access to tribal history in assemling his concoction of the tactical fight on Custer's field, for somehow he was aware pf the Cheyenne movement along Greasy Grass ridge. In later time as the generations passed history on, John Stands in Timber altered the movements made by the Cheyennes, his ancestors, and made them the movements of the Cavalry. To what extent Rickey influenced this is difficult to guage but with the Timber reworking of the battle, the last stand took place on Calhoun Hill. Stands in Timbers account had nothing to do with the battle, mispresents the first hand record and was a confusuon based upon the fact that he simply did not differentiate the different CEMETETRY's. When Wolf Tooth was discussing the cemetery, it was that where the soldiers fell. But Timber was looking at and walking over the ground to which the monument with dead beneath was upon and the National cemetery. The confusion is simple to grasp, straight forward consequence of oral tradtions and completely relevent to work by the current generation of archaeology which is further from truth than has ever been. That is history, real history, and it is fascinating watching Reno the coward and Benteen likewise, being defended and lionised by the disection of time and distance, to excuse them letting two hundred soldiers die. Perhaps the guns didn't work properly but that was entirely the fault of Reno and Terry. Leckie did some good work on Mrs Custer but it was not thorough. You really should read Harper - both books. His daughter did a terrific job. The Cheyennes fought Custer first. That was opposite the Cheyenne camp which was opposite Deep Coulee mouth. This was consistently transported downriver with the four mile village myth perpetuated by Godfrey and Camp and entertwined with all study of the battle. The Cheyenne went over Greasy Grass ridge to LSH and from NC ridge with Crazy Horse. Reno and Benteen sat behind their hill and left the five companies to be slaughtered. Reno was lying about it from the minute Terry talked to him. Benteen was honest about it to Terry in regards the valley but he was sly. Reno's force was not shoert of ammunition but it could have awaited the packs while Benteen went and assisted Custer. The warriors who attacked the five companies from Weir's Heights could have been pressured from behind without great risk.Guidons should have been mounted on Weir's peak as soon as Reno arrived on the bluffs and the fact that he did not caharge to Weir's Peak proves that the charge was a blind panic. Benteen watched Reno retreat - he was late. Reno should have held on. That was true then. It is true now. Some people try to cover up the disgrace or fritter it away in mitigation of two mediocre and paltry civil war records. I'm having some 'I luv Libbie' badges made up, how many shall I send to you? amhistory.si.edu/militaryhistory/collection/object.asp?ID=34
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