"Like buffalo" what does the phrase actual mean to an Indian

[crzhrs]

<What do you think of those classic early paintings with a mounted Indian right on the flank of the animal. Why get so close and possible death if you can do it from afar or do you think the artists had it wrong?>

Again, we need to be careful about what Indians said and what was interpreted. When Indians stated that fighting soldiers at the LBH was like hunting buffalo one has to know about how Indians actually hunted buffalo. Before guns they used bow and arrows, spears and lances. Once they got firearms they still had to get close to the buffalo to kill them. At the LBH once Reno's men started to run it became a "buffalo hunt". Indians chasing after running soldiers, riding up close to them and either clubbing, firing arrows into them or shooting them. At the LBH it wasn't about killing for food it was killing for survival.

Back to Hide Hunters shooting buffalo from a distance. If the buffalo didn't sense any danger then it wouldn't run or matter if another buffalo fell over dead. The other buffalo wouldn't know what happened, thus it was so easy for hide hunters to wipe out herds without the buffalo knowing the danger from it. If on the other hand Indians started chasing after buffalo the entire herd would sense danger and run. I doubt buffalo were "stupid" in the sense we know it . . . after all they survived for millenia before firearms and market hunting and/or kill the source of survival for Plains Indians became a tactic to defeat the Indians.

[AZ Ranger]

I think if you shoot and miss the buffalo run off in my experience. It's the wounded or dead buffalo that keeps them hanging around in my personal observations. It was repeated enough that we developed our hunt strategy based on starting with the best shooters first. It is not always a defense of the wounded or dead that occurs in my observation. I believe it is the smell of blood. The bulls become aggressive and fight each other and some attack the wounded or dead buffalo.

I believe that the Indians knew the buffalo were capable of speed and could fight if they wanted to fight. Horses have been killed by buffalo. Buffalo can run faster than a horse. I think the comment goes to the lack of fight by something that could or should fight.

I think whatever happened at the river with Reno's troop is not a buffalo hunt according to Sgt Ryan. He states there was some hard fighting and the fact so many survived indicates some fighting had to have occurred. The movement by troopers after the revolver ammunition ran out and before stopping to cross the river would be similar to a mounted buffalo hunt. The Indians saw nothing of a fight coming from a trooper that is employed to fight. My opinion is the lack of an independent seat and the rate of travel caused tunnel vision and holding on to maintain staying on the horse.

I think several "buffalo hunts" occurred on the Custer battlefield also.

Custer himself was not one of the buffalo hunts and fought it out to the end in my opinion. I think Tom Custer had killed or wounded several and the Indians took out that anger on his body.

Regards

AZ Ranger

[AZ Ranger]

A lot of buffalo were killed by Indians running them over a cliff. We did something similar to that at Big Anderson tank. We pushed them over the edge and they rolled down the other side since it was so steep and they were running when the went off the edge. None were killed but they did go over the edge without looking. We also turned them around by shooting in front of them one time.

The problem is when the buffalo get close to the Interstate from our pressure we feel obligated to avoid vehicle collisions. You have to ramp up what you are willing to do to turn them the closer you get to potential accidents.

One on one with our jeep the lead cow could outrun and out maneuverer us every time. We needed two vehicles to apply lateral pressure on the lead cow to steer her. Yes we would try to eliminate the bad lead cow but the replacement knew the run away routes also so it did no good. The best thing would be to an old slow lead cow. She would be easier to move with a vehicle.


Regards

AZ Ranger

[magpie]

I think a buffalo would be an equal opportunity victim. So if a hide hunter could slaughter them while standing and they wouldn't run so could an Indian. So there is something we are missing. It may have been lost, gone with the buffalo. Buffalo now are generally protected from hunting most of the time and so behaviors as a herd that they would develop from a more constant threat may not be available to observe today. Because buffalo today are from such a small genetic pool of survivors of the extermination that they may not be the typical buffalo of 150 years ago.

Buffalo are somewhat unique in North America as they can and will Kill are are extremely quick and extremely powerful as 3 of us on this post have witnessed. They can out run a horse and can even take out a pick up truck. The lumbering beast stereotype has led to numerous human fatalities. They do have their ideosynchracies as standing your ground while doing a special kick throwing dust up will often stop an advance however their use of a single horn like a saber and the several feet lever arm from the dorsal spinal process of the neck allows them to swing out hook, drive the point of the horn in, gore, and throw a victim 10 feet in the air all in one very split second. A very lethal capability.

Maybe there is a book or a journal of a hide hunter somewhere to be read.

[AZ Ranger]

Dec 7, 2015 6:58:08 GMT -6 magpie said:

There must of been a great advantage being in close contact off the flank of the buffalo like being off the point of a horses shoulder or it's an artist legend. I certainly know in the chute if you touch your buffalo's shoulder 98% of the time he/she backs up, but if you touch the flank or rear he/she moves forward.

I think the same pressure without contact also works. It works on cattle and on a horse. I think part of the hunt strategy if mounted may have applied pressure to stop or slow the lead giving a horse enough speed to close and make a kill.

I think there is also pictures of Indians crawling up to herd wearing a coyote hide. I say an archer on TV duplicate the technique and put a sneak on a individual buffalo. The point is the Indian had choices on how to hunt buffalo. I don't know what technique resulted in the largest number of kills. Does anyone have those numbers?

I also think the mounted hunter would take the slowest animal much like wolf.

Regards

AZ Ranger

[magpie]

The smell of blood is similar to the smell of estrous or the cow in heat (ready to breed, concieve) so the drive to stay and drive other males away maybe just a basal instinct to improve mating chances. Kind of makes sense.

So AZ how far off in yards did you need to keep the hunters be to avoid being caught up in the rut?

I wonder if the Indians didn't target the cows over the taller more agressive bulls though.

[magpie]

eljay has a great story of a bow hunter getting chased, tripping several times and landing on his own arrow as the ranch manager tried to get his truck between the buffalo and the hunter (who surviver but needed to be taken to the hospital.

[AZ Ranger]

A fireman who also guided on buffalo hunts was gored 7" deep and thrown into juniper tree.

The ranch horse was gored by a buffalo and I took him to my place for doctoring. We put 3 rolls of soaked gauze into the wound channel and removed them one at time as he healed. He lived a long life and was adopted by a Department employee who took care of him till he passed.

Navajo Apache Leo was his name. We called him Apache. One of the ranch managers that never rode a horse called him Apache Kid. The lady who adopted him called him that. He made several appearances in the Department magazine.


Here is Apache at Raymond Ranch with my wife . He was still a working horse then.


Here is Apache after he was adopted and called the Apache Kid.


Regards

AZ Ranger

[AZ Ranger]

We have two types of hunts. The Raymond Ranch hunt is accompanied by a Department employee and the House Rock Ranch hunt has the hunter on his own which can be a guided hunt.

I believe most of the time the shooters at Raymond Ranch were less than 100 yards and no closer than 50 yards.


Regards

AZ Ranger

[magpie]

Perhaps Buffalo scattered at the approach of Indians but were confused by the mountain man hide hunter and responded differently just as most game will allow a vehicle to drive right up to them but step out or even roll down the window and they scatter.

You make a very good point that most others would doubt. That point being that buffalo have personalities, have leaders and think. Herd knowledge, leadership coming with age and perhaps family relationships could certainly lead to lessons learned by buffalo about Indian hunters and how to respond. Indians getting the horse before getting good firearms may have led to a simpler and more direct learning as Indians one horseback used spears it wouldn't be hard for a buffalo to make connections as to the threat. Projectiles would be a little harder to connect to a the shooter launching same. Once a few herd leaders figure this out it would be passed down as herd knowledge for generations.

Now take AZ's normal healthy buffalo out running a horse and his wolf model of tired,old,sick or wounded buffalo falling behind like a wounded shoulder you now have a man avoiding the deadly horned end and running up on the flank. One thing about dealing with an attack from anything is if you can close, make contact and place your self in a position where the attacker will push you away as they attempt to get you with their more formidble assets you have gained an advantage.

[tubman13]

The dropin avatar on that other board is as close to buffalo hunting at the lBH I have found.

[AZ Ranger]

Buffalo can plant their front end and swing around. My horse can't do that with me sitting on him. Also in a large herd I would think the tail end would move slower at some times.

Some friends of mine work at and run buffalo ranches in New Mexico. At first they thought uses a 4X4 quad would be the ticket for herding the buffalo. At first they were afraid of it and it worked fine. Then one of the bulls had enough running for the day and decided to put the cowboy and the quad air born.

The Department is using quads at Raymond and so far they are working. I did pass on the warning. The buffalo are faster than a quad in that terrain.

Myself I had to have surgery after the lead cow lead me into wash and then she turned in the bottom. The old Dodge pickup could not turn and I hit the bank on the other side somewhere around 35-40 mph. The seat belt worked but I tore something that had to be repaired.

Regards

AZ Ranger

[shaw]

There are around a dozen buffalo in golden gate park in San Francisco They're located in a pasture about a mile from the ocean. The small herd has varied over the years. They tend to graze, sit or stand. Not a lot of galloping around. I've gotten relatively close to them. They do not come up to the fence to say hello.

What amazes me is how big the adults are.