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Post by magpie on Dec 6, 2015 10:08:06 GMT -6
In my mind I pictured the stereotypical model of an Indian on his horse directly off the flank, as in nearly touching, of a running buffalo that is in a small group of running buffalo.
AZ ranger pictures the stereotype model of the mountain man hide hunter with his rifle and tripod shooting standing buffalo that are oblivious to their fellows falling.
Both of us have a little experience with Buffalo to draw on which is a lot more than most but far less than others. My cousin worked as a hired cowboy at the then largest Buffalo herd in the world at 2,000 head. He had horses butted from the rear by a particular cow and had his own horse killed out from under him by a goring. AZ ranger worked with a park super that also had a horse killed out from under him. I read once that male plains Indian mortality was so high that it led to having 3-5 wives as the normal. Maybe some of the more experienced guys could fill us in on what killing soldiers like buffalo really means.
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eljay
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Post by eljay on Dec 6, 2015 18:50:49 GMT -6
I feel that the Indian was an opportunist hunter, he had to be or he went hungry. If he could get a shot from a distance at a standing or walking buffalo, he'd take it. If the buffalo were spooked or wary he might have to get western and ride up on them with his horse and shoot from horseback. I am sure that the Indians used the same idea when opportunity arose fighting Custer. If their best chance was a sharpshooter firing into Reno's dug in position, they did. If the opportunity was almost hand to hand on Custer's hill, they did. They killed the buffalo anyway they could to survive and when they met the cavalry on the Little Big Horn they killed them anyway they could to survive. Yes, they killed them like buffalo. eljay
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Post by magpie on Dec 6, 2015 20:35:01 GMT -6
I feel that the Indian was an opportunist hunter, he had to be or he went hungry. If he could get a shot from a distance at a standing or walking buffalo, he'd take it. If the buffalo were spooked or wary he might have to get western and ride up on them with his horse and shoot from horseback. I am sure that the Indians used the same idea when opportunity arose fighting Custer. If their best chance was a sharpshooter firing into Reno's dug in position, they did. If the opportunity was almost hand to hand on Custer's hill, they did. They killed the buffalo anyway they could to survive and when they met the cavalry on the Little Big Horn they killed them anyway they could to survive. Yes, they killed them like buffalo. eljay Thanks for response: I agree with the overall thoughts of an opportunistic hunter. And you propose really a third meaning as to "get with the least effort". Many of the reports by witnesses on both sides in 1876 were of soldiers and scout's seeing live Buffalo with arrows in them. A Sioux participant describes 4-5 Buffalo hunters getting caught in front of Custer's advance. These buffalo hunters had no firearms with them just bows and spears. The mountain men/ market hunters were using high caliper, long range guns on a tripod? Hows that going to work for the Indians assuming they are not armed that way. I know you've had quite a little experience with buffalo. How does a herd respond to the approach of a horseman or a man on foot. In other words how close do you think you can get to buffalo used to being hunted. Even if the buffalo were unable to understand the threat of a fire arm could they not understand the threat of a physical approach? What do you think of those classic early paintings with a mounted Indian right on the flank of the animal. Why get so close and possible death if you can do it from afar or do you think the artists had it wrong? Also I think it takes time for language to evolve and I think a phrase "like Buffalo" set in 1876 would be an idea coined long before and before firearms were available.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 7, 2015 5:42:29 GMT -6
Two former Game and Fish employees went to work managing buffalo for Ted Turner. Chic Wayne and Tom Waddell were both experienced. Tom Waddell still manages a turner ranch in New Mexico. We have two wildlife areas in Arizona where you can still hunt buffalo. Some of the best old stories come from the days when we managed the hunts and lots of officers participated. We actually did the retrieving and skinning. Both ranches have large skinning sheds with a rail system to move and hang carcasses. Regards AZ Ranger Houserock skinning shed
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 7, 2015 5:45:19 GMT -6
Houserock Ranch House Bunkhouse
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 7, 2015 5:52:11 GMT -6
I think the Indians hunted tactically. They chose the best available method depending on the situation.
I am not as sure about ridding up and shooting at buffalo. I know they did it and I know buffalo can run faster and turn quicker than a horse. So the condition of riding up had to be right to be effective. Chic Wayne carried a 45 auto with hot loads in case a buffalo focused in upon him. They don't always run away.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by magpie on Dec 7, 2015 6:47:34 GMT -6
Two former Game and Fish employees went to work managing buffalo for Ted Turner. Chic Wayne and Tom Waddell were both experienced. Tom Waddell still manages a turner ranch in New Mexico. We have two wildlife areas in Arizona where you can still hunt buffalo. Some of the best old stories come from the days when we managed the hunts and lots of officers participated. We actually did the retrieving and skinning. Both ranches have large skinning sheds with a rail system to move and hang carcasses. Regards AZ Ranger Houserock skinning shed In that setting as the hunting season progressed did the Buffalo run from any approach (get skittish) or at the first crack of a rifle? The 2,000 buffalo at the B/B were not being hunted and their main harassment was being gathered for brucellosis testing and culling at the head chute not in the field with a gun. They had very few hunters coming at the time I was there. In the corrals they had put posts to hide behind if they came for you. Kicking up dust often would stop an advance but the post was there to hide behind if they kept on. The best thing they had was a tractor with hydraulically folding panels and they would push the buffs down the collection point and then no one had to be in the corrals with them.
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Post by magpie on Dec 7, 2015 6:58:08 GMT -6
There must of been a great advantage being in close contact off the flank of the buffalo like being off the point of a horses shoulder or it's an artist legend. I certainly know in the chute if you touch your buffalo's shoulder 98% of the time he/she backs up, but if you touch the flank or rear he/she moves forward.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 7, 2015 8:09:47 GMT -6
Two former Game and Fish employees went to work managing buffalo for Ted Turner. Chic Wayne and Tom Waddell were both experienced. Tom Waddell still manages a turner ranch in New Mexico. We have two wildlife areas in Arizona where you can still hunt buffalo. Some of the best old stories come from the days when we managed the hunts and lots of officers participated. We actually did the retrieving and skinning. Both ranches have large skinning sheds with a rail system to move and hang carcasses. Regards AZ Ranger Houserock skinning shed In that setting as the hunting season progressed did the Buffalo run from any approach (get skittish) or at the first crack of a rifle? The 2,000 buffalo at the B/B were not being hunted and their main harassment was being gathered for brucellosis testing and culling at the head chute not in the field with a gun. They had very few hunters coming at the time I was there. In the corrals they had put posts to hide behind if they came for you. Kicking up dust often would stop an advance but the post was there to hide behind if they kept on. The best thing they had was a tractor with hydraulically folding panels and they would push the buffs down the collection point and then no one had to be in the corrals with them. My observation is the first shot needed to kill a buffalo or at least put them down. We would have hunters demonstrate their shooting ability at our range and most likely the best shooters went first. Once a buffalo went down they were more likely to hang around. At Fort Niobrara they had an auction for longhorns and buffalo. The were sent one at time down a runway and I opened a gate into a very tall round pen. The movement was coordinated by radio. One time someone forgot to let me know that a buffalo was coming my way . It's great to be young and agile. I climbed that fence in a split second and that buffalo hit the fence so hard he knocked me into the round pen where there was more buffalo. I got back on top just about as fast as the first time. From the round pen the moved into the sale area one at time. It had a double chain link fence. The inside fence had impressions of buffalo heads. I think that would be in 1978. Regards AZ Ranger
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 7, 2015 8:12:44 GMT -6
Raymond Ranch
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Post by magpie on Dec 7, 2015 8:36:30 GMT -6
In that setting as the hunting season progressed did the Buffalo run from any approach (get skittish) or at the first crack of a rifle? The 2,000 buffalo at the B/B were not being hunted and their main harassment was being gathered for brucellosis testing and culling at the head chute not in the field with a gun. They had very few hunters coming at the time I was there. In the corrals they had put posts to hide behind if they came for you. Kicking up dust often would stop an advance but the post was there to hide behind if they kept on. The best thing they had was a tractor with hydraulically folding panels and they would push the buffs down the collection point and then no one had to be in the corrals with them. My observation is the first shot needed to kill a buffalo or at least put them down. We would have hunters demonstrate their shooting ability at our range and most likely the best shooters went first. Once a buffalo went down they were more likely to hang around. At Fort Niobrara they had an action for longhorns and buffalo. The were sent one at time down a runway and I opened a gate into a very tall round pen. The movement was coordinated by radio. One time someone forgot to let me know that a buffalo was coming my way . It's great to be young and agile. I climbed that fence in a split second and that buffalo hit the fence so hard he knocked me into the round pen where there was more buffalo. I got back on top just about as fast as the first time. From the round pen the moved into the sale area one at time. It had a double chain link fence. The inside fence had impressions of buffalo heads. I think that would be in 1978. Regards AZ Ranger Interesting and very much like the classic hide hunter firing. This is proving much more difficult than I expected. On the one side we have the buffalo hanging around their distressed fellows and then the other model where the buffalo are hunting us down and trying to kill us. My experience is that animals develop a group knowledge about something and that knowledge is taught to their offspring. It's not all instinct. The classic example of this is the monkey's in japan learning to separate grain from sand using water. The knowledge is then passed down. It may not be possible to reconstruct how wild buffalo being hunted by wolves, grizzly bears and Indians responded. Of course that response would dictate how to hunt them. Why were the Indians in 1876 not using firearms? Do you know anything about Buff's hating mules and killing them? The 3/4 plywood in the corrals had a lot of holes punched clear through by horns.
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Post by crzhrs on Dec 7, 2015 12:58:57 GMT -6
One thing that has continually caused problems with trying to figure out just what Indians meant when they described the battle at the LBH or in fact anything when talking to White People was how their words were interpeted. So much was lost in translation or may have been twisted by a White interpeter to make it easier for a White person to understand. Indians spoke using metaphors so when an Indian said the Whites were drunk did that actually mean the White Soldiers were drunk or they fought so terribly. When the Indians said the Whites committed suicide do we believe the soldiers actually committed suicide or fought so poorly they gave their lives away so committed "sucide". Indians described fighting the soldiers like it was chasing buffalo. After the Plains Indians got horses they became experts at hunting buffalo by riding up close to them on horseback and firing arrow after arrow into them until the buffalo dropped or used spears to wound the animal until it collapsed. That made killing buffalo a lot easier than sneaking up on them on foot and trying to get close to them to get a few arrows off or stampeding them over a cliff. In my opinion the term they used "chasing buffalo" meant they actually got up close to them and killed them like they killed buffalo . . . either with a rifle shot or firing arrows into them. That described a number of deaths when Indians chased Reno's men across the river and up the hillside. Not sure how that played out with Custer.
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Post by magpie on Dec 7, 2015 16:28:11 GMT -6
One thing that has continually caused problems with trying to figure out just what Indians meant when they described the battle at the LBH or in fact anything when talking to White People was how their words were interpeted. So much was lost in translation or may have been twisted by a White interpeter to make it easier for a White person to understand. Indians spoke using metaphors so when an Indian said the Whites were drunk did that actually mean the White Soldiers were drunk or they fought so terribly. When the Indians said the Whites committed suicide do we believe the soldiers actually committed suicide or fought so poorly they gave their lives away so committed "sucide". Indians described fighting the soldiers like it was chasing buffalo. After the Plains Indians got horses they became experts at hunting buffalo by riding up close to them on horseback and firing arrow after arrow into them until the buffalo dropped or used spears to wound the animal until it collapsed. That made killing buffalo a lot easier than sneaking up on them on foot and trying to get close to them to get a few arrows off or stampeding them over a cliff. In my opinion the term they used "chasing buffalo" meant they actually got up close to them and killed them like they killed buffalo . . . either with a rifle shot or firing arrows into them. That described a number of deaths when Indians chased Reno's men across the river and up the hillside. Not sure how that played out with Custer. That is certainly the classic artists painting and what I see on the pictographs but AZ and eljay have additional ideas that could fit the battle. Where are the Native Americans with a tribal buffalo herd when you need them?
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 8, 2015 6:22:24 GMT -6
Buffalo jumps were used when available. That played upon the prey species reaction of running away at speed. I am sure the Indians could ride up and shoot a buffalo and we know that Buffalo Bill could do it but it is because the buffalo allowed it. The buffalo can run at 40 mph and turn much faster than horse even without a rider.
Part of this has to be how ignorant a buffalo was in regards to man as a predator. They shot buffalo from trains which have no ability for lateral movement. I watch elk herds do some of the same unexplainable behavior. A coyote when running away picks up speed when you shoot and miss.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by magpie on Dec 8, 2015 7:23:52 GMT -6
Approach by vehicle seems to be confusing to a lot of species. It doesn't seem to trigger fight or flight like an approach by a 2 or 4 legged predator. I don't think animals are easily able to perceive the threat from projectiles or perceive their fellows are being killed from afar or even they are being killed. They can learn but wiley coyotee and red fox are the head of the class. A predator like the Native American is always in a move counter move mode leading to a need for intelligence that a herbavore doesn't need as much. Sheep are amazing with vectors and geometry though and if one doesn't think cattle have smarts they should watch the video of a herd of Cape Buffalo take vengence on a pride of lions and kill one.
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