Ditch Denial, so what do members think about Reno's Ditch?

[magpie]

Reno at the RCOI made the ditch a center piece for his defense. Reno compared it to "Balaclava" which is the Charge of the Light Brigade. He said "throw my command in a ditch". If he continued his charge the saddles would be empty and all the horses killed. 

So if the ditch didn't exist why wasn't Reno laughed out of the RCOI and declared insane? He was aquited. Most of the RCOI participants had been to LBH. There really is no ability to lie here on this.

So across the great divide they all believe there was no ditch. What do people think here?

[fred]

There was absolutely a "ditch." You have several testimonies at the RCOI claiming there was a ravine... and it is still there: I have posted pictures of it. Charles Kuhlman knew it was there and it is on the maps; it's been called "Kuhlman's Ravine." The map shows it as Otter Creek and it is even on the McElfresh map. The idiots next door will do anything to support their ludicrous arguments. This is exactly what I told you when you first joined both boards. Those morons over there will do anything they can: distort, lie, leave stuff out... you name it.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[wild]

I think the ditch is irrelevant .
Are we saying that without it Reno should have been continued his charge into the village.

Hi Fred
Did Reno ever walk the field and check it out ?
Cheers
Richard

[AZ Ranger]

The ditch is there and the terrain features that create it are there. So even if you manipulate it for agriculture purposes they have to deal with the water flow.

AZ Ranger

[tubman13]

Steve,
If I am not mistaken, to walk south to find Reynolds grave from the Real Bird's you could not avoid it. Some from Disney's Fantasy Land have done that, so they know, even if not willing to admit.

Regards,
Tom

[magpie]

Dec 3, 2015 2:19:34 GMT -6 wild said:

I think the ditch is irrelevant .
Are we saying that without it Reno should have been continued his charge into the village.

Hi Fred
Did Reno ever walk the field and check it out ?
Cheers
Richard

I think Reno was acting on his gut. So what could he perceive? He explained he perceived the Indians were not acting as he had known them and he sensed a trap. William pointed out it's a classic L ambush. So as far as the ditch Reno has just passed a lesser ditch, really a swale on the first bend from the retreat ford. As he approached he could of well looked intensly at it as a hide for warriors {no ditch but a significant low spot}. This bend is the one on the Taylor photo that Taylor mistoke for the Timber/glade/horseholder/skirmish bend or the third bend. These lows usually have different vegetation and Otter has bushes and trees. So we know Reno percieved the river running East-West because he said he measured it so. This part helped me alot as Otter is at a 45 degree angle to the Maguire so I kept thinking the the left Flank of Reno's line should touch it. I think it's logical he throws up his skirmish line perpendicular to his perceived river Axis. On the topomap USGS from circa 1960 (?) Otter drainage is large and pronounced and running South to North or parallel to the expected line. I think he could perceive it's presence and potential danger. On dismount Reno takes G forward into the Timber. The Arikara are everywhere in front and how that fits in is still a puzzle. It's a timing thing and perhaps Fred has that worked out. Lyman a full Sioux that went to Yale said ( early now in the 1880's not 1930 ) his buddies, the young warriors were waiting for whites of the eye to begin firing. Young men would be expected to have few and poor fire arms and be largely armed with bows. Their chance to count coup never came. Next an overall Indian infantry charge was called for. Here Sioux speaking Arikara hear the calls and send word to Bloody Knife that there is too many and to leave and head for the bluffs (Little Sioux Arikara Nar.). Did Bloody Knife get the word and was he telling Reno. We will never know. All we know is so how Reno retreats just before the trap is sprung. We also know that the mounted Indians were driving him forward into the kill zone? This seemingly amazing set of moves with almost split second timing has left me in awe of Reno when formerly I thought little of him.

As far as a visit and inpection of the ditch he did on the 27th or 28th.

[magpie]

Dec 3, 2015 7:56:41 GMT -6 tubman13 said:

Steve,
If I am not mistaken, to walk south to find Reynolds grave from the Real Bird's you could not avoid it. Some from Disney's Fantasy Land have done that, so they know, even if not willing to admit.

Regards,
Tom

Korn the ferrier with the run away horse said he couldn't believe his horse jumped it. Reno did say that you might get an occassional horse to jump it. A ditch has a square profile and he gave it as 10 yards by 3-4 deep.

[fred]

Dec 3, 2015 2:19:34 GMT -6 wild said:

Did Reno ever walk the field and check it out ?

Richard,

I do not know for sure, but I doubt it.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[fred]

By the way, once again, here is the "ditch." Kinda hard to miss... or omit, or distort.





Best wishes,
Fred.

[magpie]

Dec 3, 2015 15:45:29 GMT -6 fred said:

Dec 3, 2015 2:19:34 GMT -6 wild said:

Did Reno ever walk the field and check it out ?

Richard,

I do not know for sure, but I doubt it.

Best wishes,
Fred.

Curious he gave testimony of it. He certainly didn't say he walked the length or looked for spent cartridges that we would like him to have done but he checked it out. Why would you think not? If you were going to make up stuff you would not be so specific. Someone else could have come later and accurately measured and then you'd look very bad. You would be vague not specific like Keough does sometimes.

Thanks for photo, topo's and satalite only go so far. 

[jodak]

To understand Reno's actions we have to think in terms of what his impression was of the ditch and those in it as he was approaching it.  What he or anyone else was able to determine about it afterwards has no bearing.

[fred]

Magpie,

You may be right; I just do not recall Reno mentioning he walked the valley floor afterwards. And I would certainly not think he did it with any intention of developing a "defense" for his actions, not at that stage. I would also think they were busy burying the dead and Reno working on an after-action report for Terry. Terry's engineer officer, LT Maguire, measured the length of the skirmish line, and while he said it was not definitive, he came up with 800 yards. This is something completely overlooked today because people do not understand the valley fight and the business with "two skirmish lines." This is one of those ignored accounts; writers prefer to take the easy route and use Wallace's incorrect figures, ignoring the more difficult to understand accounts of Maguire, Ryan, and Culbertson.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[AZ Ranger]

I think I could find a place to jump in and out of the ditch but that is not the point. You are closing to contact with a small force and every trooper counts. You can't afford to have them piling up waiting to cross, stuck in the bottom, and some crossing. Full gear jumping with some of the horses would be a good time to find out if they can make it.

Regards

AZ Ranger

[magpie]

Dec 4, 2015 5:27:58 GMT -6 AZ Ranger said:

I think I could find a place to jump in and out of the ditch but that is not the point. You are closing to contact with a small force and every trooper counts. You can't afford to have them piling up waiting to cross, stuck in the bottom, and some crossing. Full gear jumping with some of the horses would be a good time to find out if they can make it.

Regards

AZ Ranger

Have a nice trip to California. It's not that the ditch cannot be jumped or breached in a few places but that you are approaching under fire and at 8 miles an hour. You don't have a recon of the ditch to identify crossings. I know people have trouble with the idea the ditch was defended because we don't have much in the way of clear evidence for. There is just Lyman. The problem is that Reno's Skirmish line did not approach at whites of the eyes range so the big event never occurred. The ditch was never engauged. Does anyone know precisely what the skirmishers were shooting at? Or is it just "men scared out of their minds shooting at nothing". So our young warriors, mostly bowmen, didn't have a story to tell and so none was recorded except Lyman. The exploits of the older mounted warriors were. I suspect that the weak point of the ditch were heavily defended. If you place the Indian Infantry (young warriors) in the ditch instead of in the field you then have an easy explaination of the room the Ree horse stealers had to operate in between it and the village.

If I was Reno I would be intent on seeing just what that was in front of my skirmish line after the battle. Terry's camp was right down there next to it as was the 7th's camp on the 27th and 28th according to HR.

[magpie]

Dec 3, 2015 21:26:25 GMT -6 fred said:

Magpie,

You may be right; I just do not recall Reno mentioning he walked the valley floor afterwards. And I would certainly not think he did it with any intention of developing a "defense" for his actions, not at that stage. I would also think they were busy burying the dead and Reno working on an after-action report for Terry. Terry's engineer officer, LT Maguire, measured the length of the skirmish line, and while he said it was not definitive, he came up with 800 yards. This is something completely overlooked today because people do not understand the valley fight and the business with "two skirmish lines." This is one of those ignored accounts; writers prefer to take the easy route and use Wallace's incorrect figures, ignoring the more difficult to understand accounts of Maguire, Ryan, and Culbertson.

Best wishes,
Fred.

I'd like to understand the Skirmish line bit your describing as I am ignorant of that controversey. I thought we had it figured to having only 2/3 rds (horse holders to timber and G on recon in force with Reno to the timber of the men at 5 yard spacing and that's without a reserve unit or a wing reserve. So 80 men times 5 yards so 400 yards maximum but I think discussions of 200 yards were common on these boards and I forgot what was said at the RCOI and what the 4 skirmish lines drawn by participants would come too. You earlier had favored a more modern line with depth. I am not good with computers or I would put up the 1886 photos of the US Army demonstrating a skirmish line at LBH that HR had found. Also I think we can gain insight by measuring the Blummer-Cartright line. It's an interesting rethink about 2 things in regards to the 1886 demonstration: 1.) What gun and what ammo are they using during that demo (ie could it possibley have been vintage); 2.) If we cluster men in squads of 4 and separate the squad of 4's greater than 5 yards do we end up with 3 cartridges spaced out just as they were found on Blummer-Cartright? I used to do the military auctions and anyone thinking that the US Army would not have vintage materials around in quantity doesn't know much.

I edited out speculation the demonstration was on the Blummer/ Rye/ Cartright/ Luce/ hill as it is clear in photo that river is in the background. So the demonstration appears to be in the LSH area. Photo's are in Denver Public Library as B-847 and B-807.