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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2015 14:40:49 GMT -6
I wonder about the Henry misfires. The case had to be rotated to get the firing pins to strike in different locations. I think they had to eject the cartridge and try again. I never thought of that. Thanks and enjoy California. Pete
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Post by jodak on Dec 4, 2015 18:33:26 GMT -6
A little research yields that there were two cartridge boxes/pouches in use by the U.S. cavalry in the 1876 time frame - the M1874 45/70 McKeever Cartridge Box and the M1874 Dyer Cartridge Pouch (45/70 Rifle/Carbine). The Dyer was lambs wool lined, maybe for the express purpose of avoiding contact between the rounds and the leather, but the only images that I can find of it only indirectly show the lining, and, from that, it appears that it might not have been completely lined, but I can't tell for sure. I would think that it would take a longer period than a short campaign for any copper/leather chemical reaction to take place, but maybe not, especially with humidity and heat. The M1874 waist belt was completely leather, with leather loops, so that would mean that the shells would be in tighter contact with leather than when within a pouch and would also be more exposed to the elements. I can't find anything to shed any light on the relative preponderance of the two, so it may be that one or the other was totally in use or a combination of the two. My earlier statement that I did not think that cartridge belts were yet in widespread use was based upon a misaplication of my knowledge that Anson Mills, he of Rosebud and Slim Buttes note, had developed a canvas cartridge belt that, due to manufacturing problems, did not enter widespread use until the Spanish Anerican War. However, I failed to consider the earlier leather belts that may have been in use at the time.
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Post by dave on Dec 4, 2015 21:31:29 GMT -6
littlebigman "Mr Chemist here. It's a reasonable hypothesis that the tannic acid in the leather might oxidize the Cu to hydrated copper oxides (verdigris). " Does that mean I got it right? If so, it doesn't happen very often. I have been looking to see if I could find more about canvas cartridge belts. I discovered a site that offers antique items. They have a 1876 Prairie belt in 50 caliber. The caliber is different but the belt has canvas lining with a leather belt. It is very interesting. www.mcpheetersantiquemilitaria.com/05_accoutrements/05_item_007.htmThis is another item called a Rock Island Experimental 1876 Canvas Prairie belt. www.mcpheetersantiquemilitaria.com/05_accoutrements/05_item_013.htmHopefully this will be of assistance. Regards Dave
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2015 22:35:59 GMT -6
<<Does that mean I got it right? If so, it doesn't happen very often>>
I know what you mean!
I think you did get it right. And there are other ways that metals can oxidize which depends on what other metal or metals it's in contact with, what the humidity levels are, the temperature, and the presence of any electrolytes such as Na or K. And then there's just plain 'ol time.
The pictures of the cartridge belts makes me wonder how much sweat would come in contact with the bullets. Just my opinion but I think the leather would soak a lot up from the rider's back, in particular. They certainly have had a lot of use based on the aging of the leather.
Many thanks, Pete
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2015 22:38:36 GMT -6
I'm discovering that some of the "brass" 45-70's are actually made out of bronze (brass=20% Zn, bronze=10%). More research to do on that just to make sure. LBM
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Post by tubman13 on Dec 13, 2015 5:59:22 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on Dec 13, 2015 16:17:00 GMT -6
Thank you Tubman! Here's the relevant section and it looks like the tannic acids are the culprit:
<<Many troopers wore cartridge belts made of leather and the acid used in tanning leather caused a rapid build up of verdigris, a green acetate of copper, that – if not cleaned off the case before firing – could literally cement the cartridge case in the chamber upon firing.>>
After about 1889 the cases were plated in tin to help reduce the production of verdigris. This is another example of dissimilar metals in touch with each other causing the reaction of tin for copper, sort of like covering the hull of a ship with zinc to prevent the corrosion of iron.
LBM
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Post by dave on Dec 13, 2015 22:46:26 GMT -6
What a really good thread. I have not discussed this much chemistry since being kicked out of Chemistry Lab in the spring of 1967. It seems if you mix nitric, hydrochloric, sulfuric and acetic acid you can make a large volume of chlorine gas after the small explosion and will clear out almost all of the high school. The above experiment was made by an idiot who had no idea of what he was doing. I got suspended from attending class with the others for the last 6 weeks and studied chemistry by myself in study hall. I was suspended from the baseball team for 2 games and ruined a good pair of jeans. Having said all of this I am always fascinated when going to battlefields to see how the bronze 12 pounder Napoleons have this thick green patina.
Regards Dave
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 14, 2015 6:14:00 GMT -6
Brass cases did the same thing in our leather duty belts and loops. In my Department when I started we had to buy are own revolver. My first was a S&W Model 19 with a 4 inch barrel. 357 magnum, 41 magnum, and 44 magnum were authorized. Only .357 ammunition was supplied. Getting paid $10,400 per year with a wife and two sons made the choice easy. It was a hardship just to get the revolver. My last revolver which I still have was a Colt Python with a 6 inch barrel.
At some point the Department started buying the nickel plated ammunition which is in common use today for law enforcement use in semi-autos.
We were issued a 6 loop leather belt slide cartridge holder. Some doubled it and bought a 12. The next step was speed loaders which allowed you to load 6 cartridges at a time if you could keep them aligned. remember the blue green color mostly on the leather since the rounds were easier to keep clean. I did notice that some had green color tint to their rounds. At a shoot in Sedona at the old fair ground one officer had a case stuck in cylinder and the ejector rod would not move it. It was pounded out with a wooden dowel.
I decided to buy an AR 15 rifle after some occult training at the time (1980s) and still have it.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 14, 2015 6:25:37 GMT -6
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Post by tubman13 on Dec 14, 2015 7:29:09 GMT -6
Have seen him shoot I the past. I saw him use ricochet to bust 2 balloons at 45 degree angle with one bullet and other assorted tricks. His wrist control/strength is what few shooters work on. thumb calluses must be huge.
Regards, Tom
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Post by dave on Dec 14, 2015 11:00:38 GMT -6
Steve To be a reserve police officer with the University of Mississippi Police Department you had to provide your own revolver in 38/357 caliber. I bought a Model 19 with 4 " barrel like you and we also used speed loaders. We were issued 38 Special +P 135 Grain Jacketed Hollow Point ammo. On campus we did not want a round to go through walls. We qualified twice a year on a standard range from 1 yard to 15 yards as well as a shooting gallery. One night qual and 1 daylight. I will say that the one time we used 357 ammo and burned the daylights out of our hands and fingers reloading 357 ammo on the range. Those rounds are damn hot when dumping. Regards Dave
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Post by Deleted on Dec 14, 2015 15:07:51 GMT -6
What a really good thread. I have not discussed this much chemistry since being kicked out of Chemistry Lab in the spring of 1967. It seems if you mix nitric, hydrochloric, sulfuric and acetic acid you can make a large volume of chlorine gas after the small explosion and will clear out almost all of the high school. The above experiment was made by an idiot who had no idea of what he was doing. I got suspended from attending class with the others for the last 6 weeks and studied chemistry by myself in study hall. I was suspended from the baseball team for 2 games and ruined a good pair of jeans. Having said all of this I am always fascinated when going to battlefields to see how the bronze 12 pounder Napoleons have this thick green patina. Regards Dave Fun with chemistry. I teach my students how to use an instrument called an Atomic Absorption spectrometer, and it runs on a fuel/oxidant mixture the choice of which determines the temperature of the flame. Anyway, I use an acetylene/air mixture, and you have to be careful that no acetylene leaks back to the waste bottle, so you put a trap in the line full of water and there's never anything to worry about. Well, I forgot once and when I turned the instrument off there was a "flashback" explosion where the waste bottle blew up about 1.5 feet from my right knee (it couldn't follow the line back to the tank because of a one-way safety valve). Fortunately I ALWAYS turn the damn thing on and off and tell the students to move away from the instrument. Saved my bacon that day, as well as the students. What a dumb ass, but something's bound to happen after 25 years of teaching. LBM
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Post by dave on Dec 14, 2015 22:43:05 GMT -6
Steve I forgot to mention that the + P 135 grain hollow point would burn your fingers also when dumping the rounds from the pistol. Much easier and less painful shooting wad cutters. Regards Dave
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 15, 2015 6:25:11 GMT -6
Dave
We used the wadcutters also. I think because they were less velocity and cut holes in the paper. It took me awhile to figure out that the qualification was to protect the agency. Officer survival depends upon making hits before the bad guy and uses the higher pressure ammunition. The present day qualifications are with duty ammunition but still don't address officer survival. It has a time factor but you know you are about shoot which is a big decision point taken away from an officer in regards to when to shoot. You have to know you're in a gun fight.
We all appreciate a shooter with a tight group and down play the shooter that hits the heart, two lungs, the spine, and the liver areas.
My goal as an instructor is to have them learn to shoot as fast as possible while keeping all hits on the target. Then for qualifications slow down for just an accuracy test.
Steve
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