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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2015 17:52:10 GMT -6
We all know that the cases were made out of 95/5 Gilding copper, but some cases were brass with more zinc, like some of the Springfield 45/70's on FF Ridge.
I've found a few references specifically about 19th century metallurgy, and Steve gave me a fantastic contact at the Springfield Armory Historic Site, but I was wondering if there was anybody who has more info?
best wishes, LBM
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Post by tubman13 on Dec 3, 2015 8:12:24 GMT -6
1. Don't attempt to shoot those using modern powder. Just kidding! 2. You were about 10 years past the cap and ball era. Manufactures then as today attempted to use the most available and cheapest materials for profit purposes. The materials worked well in the rimfire ammunition, but the higher pressures developed in longer casings, with more powder, pushing heaver bullets was not taken into account. 3. The M-16 was not a first rate weapon when 1st issued, eventually the bugs were worked out, same principle. Weapon systems like the airplane evolved. 4. While metallurgy continues to evolve, they had all the tools and materials to get it right back then and they did.
Regards, Tom
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 3, 2015 9:19:14 GMT -6
I think it was totally a budget consideration in my opinion. They had the equipment to manufacture the .45-70 rounds using the gilded copper material. They needed to have new machinery to make the brass cases.
I think Tom nailed it in regards to increase pressure and the copper gilded case.
Regards
Steve
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2015 12:11:53 GMT -6
I forgot about this incredible PDF of the small arms ammo at the international exposition in 1876. It's very comprehensive and well worth a read: tinyurl.com/hneotdd
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2015 13:01:47 GMT -6
1. Don't attempt to shoot those using modern powder. Just kidding! I saw a lot of trooper cases where they had blown apart like one of those gag exploding cigars, if you know what I mean! Thanks for your reply, I really appreciate it. Kind regards, Pete
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2015 13:02:47 GMT -6
I think Tom nailed it in regards to increase pressure and the copper gilded case. Thanks Steve. Kind regards, Pete
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Post by benteen on Dec 3, 2015 14:57:32 GMT -6
Tom,Steve, Pete,
Thanks for sharing your knowledge of weapons. I dont have a great knowledge of them, but what I do know from the military is the importance of maintaining a weapon. You must keep it clean. Steve pointed out that after 1876 the Army added a cleaning rod, we also know that Capt French had the only cleaning rod in the regiment. This tells me that not only these soldiers did not have a tooth brush and solvent,gun oil etc, they didnt even have a cleaning rod. After the long march in rain dust etc, these carbines were filthy. I have know doubt that there may have been problems with the cartridges, but I think that the improper or none at all maintenance of these weapons was also a contributing factor in perhaps the jamming or miss-firing. In fact it is a wonder why any of them actually worked.
Be Well Dan
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Post by jodak on Dec 3, 2015 19:24:08 GMT -6
I believe that I have see several things that attributed the jamming more to dirty ammunition than to dirty guns. It is easy to see how the ammunition could pick up a layer of dust, and, if not frequently cleaned, could cause problems. I think that, at the time, cartridge belts had not come into widespread use and ammunition was still carried in pouches/boxes on the belt. It would seem like that would provide a degree of protection from dust, but maybe not. As a side issue, I have always wondered about the Indian firearms. I have seen photos where they have been cut down and all kinds of modifications done to them, and I assume that the Indians had neither the tools nor know how to properly maintain them, so it is a wonder that many of them functioned at all or did not blow up in the user's face.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 3, 2015 19:53:40 GMT -6
As a side issue, I have always wondered about the Indian firearms. I have seen photos where they have been cut down and all kinds of modifications done to them, and I assume that the Indians had neither the tools nor know how to properly maintain them, so it is a wonder that many of them functioned at all or did not blow up in the user's face. I believe that you are correct, the Indians weren't able to clean their weapons either, and perhaps hadn't been since the Rosebud, although that's entirely speculative. It also explains the large number of Henry misfires. Thanks Jodak, Pete
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 4, 2015 5:35:10 GMT -6
I wonder about the Henry misfires. The case had to be rotated to get the firing pins to strike in different locations. I think they had to eject the cartridge and try again.
Taking off to California for a few days.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by tubman13 on Dec 4, 2015 6:26:04 GMT -6
1. Don't attempt to shoot those using modern powder. Just kidding! I saw a lot of trooper cases where they had blown apart like one of those gag exploding cigars, if you know what I mean! Thanks for your reply, I really appreciate it. Kind regards, Pete Pete, You asked a good question, and you probably already pretty much knew what I put forth.
Regards, Tom
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Post by tubman13 on Dec 4, 2015 6:35:47 GMT -6
As a side issue, I have always wondered about the Indian firearms. I have seen photos where they have been cut down and all kinds of modifications done to them, and I assume that the Indians had neither the tools nor know how to properly maintain them, so it is a wonder that many of them functioned at all or did not blow up in the user's face. I believe that you are correct, the Indians weren't able to clean their weapons either, and perhaps hadn't been since the Rosebud, although that's entirely speculative. It also explains the large number of Henry misfires. Thanks Jodak, Pete Gentlemen,
I have read that there was Army concern about NA scouts cleaning there weapons and began to issue them nickel coated revolvers, as they were less easily corroded. This, however had no impact on internal barrel or cylinder. With this trivia and $2.00 you can get a small coffee at Starbucks.
Regards, Tom
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Post by dave on Dec 4, 2015 11:22:00 GMT -6
Was not the canvas web bandolier in response to the problems of dirty ammo? I remember reading some where, I think, that the dirty rounds are a reaction betwen the leather and the brass causing a bit of the copper to leach out producing the green stuff called verdigris. If I have this balled up please st me straight as it is dangerous to have a little knowledge and I have little. Regards Dave
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2015 13:59:07 GMT -6
I was reading last night in Fox's book that Two Moons claimed that the Cheyenne ascended towards CH to the left of the Sioux, which I'm interpreting to mean that the Cheyenne were ascending C Coulee/GGR while the Sioux either went up FFR or Henryville (Gall if he really went up Deep Coulee?). Does anyone have more info about Two Moons' testimony?
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Post by Deleted on Dec 4, 2015 14:00:37 GMT -6
Was not the canvas web bandolier in response to the problems of dirty ammo? I remember reading some where, I think, that the dirty rounds are a reaction betwen the leather and the brass causing a bit of the copper to leach out producing the green stuff called verdigris. If I have this balled up please st me straight as it is dangerous to have a little knowledge and I have little. Regards Dave Mr Chemist here. It's a reasonable hypothesis that the tannic acid in the leather might oxidize the Cu to hydrated copper oxides (verdigris).
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