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Post by edavids on Nov 6, 2015 23:00:02 GMT -6
Let's also not leave out a portion of the order perhaps because it does not sit well within diatribe-Benteen was also ordered to bring the packs and the "pacs" as well. I have read your posts on this board and the other and the word "ammunition" does not appear as an adjective before the words packs or pacs. Can you answer a direct question without the added bombast? Thank you.
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Post by wild on Nov 7, 2015 3:38:01 GMT -6
Hi Dave
Which does not address a direct question. Where in Cooke's note does it state for Benteen to go to Reno or name the additional messenger who did deliver such a message along with multiple corroborating witnesses. There are three pariies to the order ....Custer ,Benteen ,and McDougal .The command and control system obliges Benteen to report to Custer. If [just saying] Benteen joins Reno with packs in the valley the de facto management of US forces passes to Reno. And I don't think Custer was ceding command. Cheers
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Post by wild on Nov 7, 2015 4:05:05 GMT -6
On that again Dave. Battles of that era were controlled by the application of the reserves.The reserves were held back until the main chance appeared. Benteen and packs had become Custer's reserve .There is simply no way Custer would have given control of his reserves to Reno it is just unconscionable for Custer to take such a decision. And if that had been his intention at least an officer if not Cook himself would have carried such a dispatch. Cheers
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Post by AZ Ranger on Nov 7, 2015 5:37:29 GMT -6
Richard
Since Custer had not fired a shot nor crossed MTC where did he expect to be when Benteen and the packs came up?
Steve
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Post by tubman13 on Nov 7, 2015 6:19:50 GMT -6
I think HR is tuned into the BBC's version of LBH radio and is experiencing wave skip. Those of us over here can listen to WLBH(east of Mississippi) or KLBH(west). That way we can be on his wave length! Wild is somewhere in the middle, I don't know where to tell him to tune.
Regards
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Post by tubman13 on Nov 7, 2015 6:45:35 GMT -6
Wild,
You have a good grasp on this battle. You are not an irrational Custer fan boy. None of us know for certain(100%)how exactly events lined up in the Custer/Keogh sectors. As I see it, correct me if I am wrong, the only real issue that you and I are divergent on is Benteen's actions. Understandable.
You say Custer never ceded control of Benteen/reserves to Reno. Could not Reno have taken control, being senior to Benteen. Did he not do that? Life is and has always been about choices. Let us suppose Benteen chose to leave Reno and continue forward to GAC. What would have been the result? I always have come down on the side of the entire command would have died that day. Benteen, did save a portion of the command, and did not cause GAC's demise.
You and I have made good and bad choices in life predicated upon the situation/facts we were presented with.
Regards, Tom
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Post by edavids on Nov 7, 2015 7:09:20 GMT -6
Hi Dave Which does not address a direct question. Where in Cooke's note does it state for Benteen to go to Reno or name the additional messenger who did deliver such a message along with multiple corroborating witnesses.There are three pariies to the order ....Custer ,Benteen ,and McDougal .The command and control system obliges Benteen to report to Custer. If [just saying] Benteen joins Reno with packs in the valley the de facto management of US forces passes to Reno. And I don't think Custer was ceding command. Cheers Agreed
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Post by edavids on Nov 7, 2015 7:16:16 GMT -6
On that again Dave. Battles of that era were controlled by the application of the reserves.The reserves were held back until the main chance appeared. Benteen and packs had become Custer's reserve .There is simply no way Custer would have given control of his reserves to Reno it is just unconscionable for Custer to take such a decision. And if that had been his intention at least an officer if not Cook himself would have carried such a dispatch. Cheers Agreed again.
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Post by wild on Nov 7, 2015 7:41:46 GMT -6
Hi AZ
Since Custer had not fired a shot nor crossed MTC where did he expect to be when Benteen and the packs came up? I can only guess. Custer wanted Benteen and packs now so that he could advance and open the engagement with the Indians. Of course he could not have Benteen now so he can fall back or advance and take post on the approaches to the fords. He went forward into MTC . Now where he emerges into MTC is anything up to a big mile back from the Ford .Should be safe enough .So that is my guess as to where Custer expected to collect Benteen. Cheers
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Post by edavids on Nov 7, 2015 8:04:37 GMT -6
I think HR is tuned into the BBC's version of LBH radio and is experiencing wave skip. Those of us over here can listen to WLBH(east of Mississippi) or KLBH(west). That way we can be on his wave length! Wild is somewhere in the middle, I don't know where to tell him to tune. Regards HR owns his own wavelength, BABC (Blame Anybody But Custer).
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Post by wild on Nov 7, 2015 8:08:46 GMT -6
Hi Tom
You say Custer never ceded control of Benteen/reserves to Reno. Could not Reno have taken control, being senior to Benteen. Did he not do that? Life is and has always been about choices. Let us suppose Benteen chose to leave Reno and continue forward to GAC. What would have been the result? I always have come down on the side of the entire command would have died that day. Benteen, did save a portion of the command, and did not cause GAC's demise. I think Custer is fighting for his life in and around the time Benteen reaches Reno hill. Agreed Benteen was not the cause of Custer's demise. Benteen probably would have been at least defeated if he had gone beyond Weir Point in trying to reach Custer. And if Benteen had gone down Reno's remnants were next. So all in all Benteen's passivity prevented further carnage. So why have I got issues with this man? Because hindsight has been very kind to him ,he was desperately lucky that his inactivity kept the command out of the fight. And judged in real time as per the numbers he could be accused of internal desertation.[Those of you familiar with Dien Bien Phu will be familiar with this condition.] Cheers
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Post by magpie on Nov 7, 2015 8:27:10 GMT -6
Thank you AZ and Wild for info on the map. I am attempting to contact the bookstore at the Visitors Center. Regards Dave AZ You are correct that any could be arrested. The ones I remember are the individuals who demanded their constitutional right to be arrested. The ones who would not shut up, stop arguing and insinuating that my mother was a fallen woman. If you successful please let me know, thanks
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Post by magpie on Nov 7, 2015 10:04:54 GMT -6
Wild: I am a little lost on the bring packs up quick. I would think there was a very rigid proticol for interpretation of that order but I don't know the proticol. This idea "bring up" means to come to Reno was entirely new to me when Keogh sprung it on me as it makes little sense but destination wasn't specified as Keogh said. I would think an order from a commander would reguire Reno to give aid to Benteen to carry the order out not the reverse. It was clear about the packs and waiting for them to come up was a reasonable literal interpretation on Reno's part. The idea Benteen would be able to accomplish same in a few hours is a little fishy. His original orders where to take him far afield. Perhaps the scouts could get a dust cloud fix on Benteen's position and know he's returning on his trail but the pack train dust is over that way too and I don't think you could know for sure. Obviously Custer didn't expect Benteen to come up at Trumpeter Martins pace or he wouldn't have told him to try to return separately if he could. As Custer's sector was quite I think he could hear what was happening to Reno or some of the younger scouts and men could hear anyway ( the spencer report and the other guns being different).
If Custer wasn't going to attack he should not have declared hi intentions by coming to Medicine Tail to begin with and should have stayed on Weir Peak. A brief down hill run and he's at the greater Ford B area. He could have sent recon out to deep Coulee to scope the B2 Ford and still stay'd uncommited to his enemies eyes and been able to command the whole regiment from that "signal" hill. That is if he had any intention of waiting which I do not agree he had. He would not have discharged the Crow Scouts if he had any intention of waiting.
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Post by edavids on Nov 7, 2015 10:34:15 GMT -6
Wild: I am a little lost on the bring packs up quick. I would think there was a very rigid proticol for interpretation of that order but I don't know the proticol. This idea "bring up" means to come to Reno was entirely new to me when Keogh sprung it on me as it makes little sense but destination wasn't specified as Keogh said. I would think an order from a commander would reguire Reno to give aid to Benteen to carry the order out not the reverse. It was clear about the packs and waiting for them to come up was a reasonable literal interpretation on Reno's part. The idea Benteen would be able to accomplish same in a few hours is a little fishy. His original orders where to take him far afield. Perhaps the scouts could get a dust cloud fix on Benteen's position and know he's returning on his trail but the pack train dust is over that way too and I don't think you could know for sure. Obviously Custer didn't expect Benteen to come up at Trumpeter Martins pace or he wouldn't have told him to try to return separately if he could. As Custer's sector was quite I think he could hear what was happening to Reno or some of the younger scouts and men could hear anyway ( the spencer report and the other guns being different). If Custer wasn't going to attack he should not have declared hi intentions by coming to Medicine Tail to begin with and should have stayed on Weir Peak. A brief down hill run and he's at the greater Ford B area. He could have sent recon out to deep Coulee to scope the B2 Ford and still stay'd uncommited to his enemies eyes and been able to command the whole regiment from that "signal" hill. That is if he had any intention of waiting which I do not agree he had. He would not have discharged the Crow Scouts if he had any intention of waiting. Hello Magpie. It is true that no destination was specified. I never served in the military but my spidey sense tells me to go to the author of the note. Our military experts will correct me if am wrong . As to the moderator of theother board: he seems to be well read on the topic of LBH and his dedication to the study is admirable. Unfortunately it appears that his driving motive in life is to exonerate Custer at theexpense of all other participants with Reno the convenient scapegoat. The majority of his posts and commentary on documentation illustrate this line of thinking. The quote he likes to use that I detest most is his "throwing the baby out with thebathwater" nonsense which he uses when a questionable source on other LBH matters is suddenly a bastion of truth when it comes to derogatory comments about Reno. In Short if, the comment denigrates Reno it must be true, kind of like The NY Sun in "Yes Virginia..." I respect his knowledge and dedication to LBH, not his opinions on assigning blame or his presentation methods.
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Post by fred on Nov 7, 2015 10:37:21 GMT -6
HR owns his own wavelength, BABC (Blame Anybody But Custer). Truer words have never been written!!! Ol' HR is off wandering in Never-Never Land. You guys should try to go back and view some of his earlier posts, then read what Dark Cloud had written. Talk about entertainment...!!!Best wishes, Fred.
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