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Post by benteen on Oct 6, 2015 12:33:53 GMT -6
Forum, I believe Major Reno made the correct call (Breakout) under the circumstances he was in. (Not looking for a debate on this) However, we know that some men were left behind. As to this I have 2 questions. 1....Is it the responsibility of the Battalion commander to see to it that all the men got the word on the action about to be taken, or does he notify each company commander and it is their responsibility to see that all their men get the word. 2...The trumpeter back then was the equivalent of todays radio man. The radio man is always with the C.O. My question is who was his trumpeter, and why wasnt he with Reno, or if he was with Reno why didnt Reno utilize him. I dont know how many soldiers would hear "Mount Up" as opposed to a bugle call. Thank You Be Well The other Dan
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Post by Colt45 on Oct 6, 2015 14:22:15 GMT -6
The battalion commander is responsible for the battalion, therefore it is his responsibility to get the word out that the unit is moving. How he does this has several options. He can personally run around yelling to everyone, or he can send messengers to the subordinate commanders to have them mount their men. The best way would have been to send messengers to the commanders, as well as have the trumpeter issue the move out signal. We don't know where the trumpeter was when Reno decided to break out, so he may not have been able to issue an order to the trumpeter. He also had just had his face splattered with Bloody Knife's brains, so he probably wasn't totally together at that moment.
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Post by benteen on Oct 6, 2015 15:01:58 GMT -6
The battalion commander is responsible for the battalion, therefore it is his responsibility to get the word out that the unit is moving. How he does this has several options. He can personally run around yelling to everyone, or he can send messengers to the subordinate commanders to have them mount their men. The best way would have been to send messengers to the commanders, as well as have the trumpeter issue the move out signal. We don't know where the trumpeter was when Reno decided to break out, so he may not have been able to issue an order to the trumpeter. He also had just had his face splattered with Bloody Knife's brains, so he probably wasn't totally together at that moment. Colt45, Good answer Sir. Makes total sense. Appreciate your response. Be Well Dan
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shaw
Full Member
Posts: 187
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Post by shaw on Oct 6, 2015 15:12:25 GMT -6
Good call, bad execution.
1. Gotten word to everyone to prepare to break out. 2. Made sure everyone went at the same time of in planned sequence. 3. Had a part of the battalion who covered the break out (my word). Maybe two companies retiring and one company covering the maneuver with concentrated rifle fire. Fire, move back, fire, move back. NA's tended not to charge into skirmish lines, but rather preferred to work around it or demonstrate in front of it. Not saying this would have happened but s smart cavalry formation could have mitigated the losses.
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Post by dan25 on Oct 6, 2015 15:23:22 GMT -6
There were 4 Trumpeter's with Reno.
Company A, was "William G. Hardy" and "David McVeigh" Company M, was "Charles Fischer" and "Henry C. Weaver" Company G Trumpeter "Henry C. Dose" was with Custer.
Having 4 Trumpeter's available certainly one would have been with Reno. But I have to agree with Colt45, I don't think Reno was thinking clearly. He had his hands full and wasn't sure how to get out of that mess.
According to Pvt. William C. Slaper of Company M, most of the soldiers didn't hear Reno's command to leave the timbers due to the noise and the shooting of both the Indians and soldiers, most seen others leaving and just followed.
He also said there was no bugle call. As most were leaving the timbers the Indians mixed with the soldiers and others were to afraid to try and escape. Most of those that stayed behind made it to Reno Hill later.
regards dan25
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Post by benteen on Oct 6, 2015 15:54:48 GMT -6
Good call, bad execution. 1. Gotten word to everyone to prepare to break out. 2. Made sure everyone went at the same time of in planned sequence. 3. Had a part of the battalion who covered the break out (my word). Maybe two companies retiring and one company covering the maneuver with concentrated rifle fire. Fire, move back, fire, move back. NA's tended not to charge into skirmish lines, but rather preferred to work around it or demonstrate in front of it. Not saying this would have happened but s smart cavalry formation could have mitigated the losses. Shaw, I can go along with one and two, but three not so much. I understand what you are saying as to a leap frog type of withdrawal, but you would need at least 2 or better yet 3 lines. The first fires and retreats to the rear of the 3 lines, then line 2 etc. But that is only utilized when the enemy is coming from one direction, such as Godfrey did on the retreat from Weir point. To use 1 company to cover the other 2 would be suicide for the covering company. They would have to dismount, with horse holders they would have maybe 30 men to hold off 8-9 hundred warriors. They wouldnt last 5 minutes. Be Well Dan
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Post by magpie on Oct 12, 2015 11:50:31 GMT -6
I agree, the concept is great. Perhaps if they had just let the horses go and fight like infantry. Did they have those tactics then? There are several problems I see: 1.) You need the force of the charge to break the encirclement; 2.) The terrain was forcing you to leave the thick brush on the edge of the glade you formed up in, to exit in single file. Reno was trying to get Intel by sign from Bloody Knife when the Indians opened up on the formation. Girard was off screwing up, formenting mutiny and getting his Stallion a little or other wise being a jerk instead of translating. I am not sure the bugle blow would help team blue as much as it might the Indians. Just where am I heading on the sound of retreat anyway?
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Post by AZ Ranger on Oct 12, 2015 12:10:48 GMT -6
I think the starting out was as good as could be expected. That the word did not get everyone tells more about the conditions in the timber than anything to me. I don't think you need to be personally invited to go to your horse. If you can't see others leaving you could not see Indians infiltrating.
Once mounted the egress was through defiles. The first company according William O Taylor was mounted in fours and at lest the outside troopers had their revolvers in hand with an extended arm. The problem begins with the charge gait of the horses. Not all our equal in speed and stamina. Not many of the riders could stay in the saddle with an independent seat. That means they had to hold on and if the speed was relatively new to them then their focus was to hang and look straight ahead.
I think there were some experienced CQB soldiers at the quick stop at the river. Ryan describes the fighting. Others were not as ready for CQB and were focused on crossing the river to the Custer side.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by magpie on Oct 12, 2015 14:17:35 GMT -6
I think the starting out was as good as could be expected. That the word did not get everyone tells more about the conditions in the timber than anything to me. I don't think you need to be personally invited to go to your horse. If you can't see others leaving you could not see Indians infiltrating. Once mounted the egress was through defiles. The first company according William O Taylor was mounted in fours and at lest the outside troopers had their revolvers in hand with an extended arm. The problem begins with the charge gait of the horses. Not all our equal in speed and stamina. Not many of the riders could stay in the saddle with an independent seat. That means they had to hold on and if the speed was relatively new to them then their focus was to hang and look straight ahead. I think there were some experienced CQB soldiers at the quick stop at the river. Ryan describes the fighting. Others were not as ready for CQB and were focused on crossing the river to the Custer side. Regards AZ Ranger Yes there is a difference between Taylor and either Varnum RCOI or another officer. Varnum confirms your different horse speed issue nicely, he leaving late for want of a place in line but racing past all the other horses once in the open. I recall Taylor lost a Stirrup on the brush (not easy to do, a lot of force involved to accomplish) so at various times on the cow path out they may have crowded it and got their 4's. I am kind of ignorant of the calvary meaning of defiles: " a narrow path", "to move in a file"?? Is that big sage down along the Timber. You know that tree like stuff that's 5-8 feet tall with 4-6 inch caliper branches that becomes like running through a maze? Or is it just clusters and groves of willows ( 1 inch caliper growing like a bamboo thicket) ? Where do I find Ryan's story?
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Post by montrose on Oct 12, 2015 16:42:33 GMT -6
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shaw
Full Member
Posts: 187
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Post by shaw on Oct 12, 2015 18:14:58 GMT -6
I think the starting out was as good as could be expected. That the word did not get everyone tells more about the conditions in the timber than anything to me. I don't think you need to be personally invited to go to your horse. If you can't see others leaving you could not see Indians infiltrating. Once mounted the egress was through defiles. The first company according William O Taylor was mounted in fours and at lest the outside troopers had their revolvers in hand with an extended arm. The problem begins with the charge gait of the horses. Not all our equal in speed and stamina. Not many of the riders could stay in the saddle with an independent seat. That means they had to hold on and if the speed was relatively new to them then their focus was to hang and look straight ahead. I think there were some experienced CQB soldiers at the quick stop at the river. Ryan describes the fighting. Others were not as ready for CQB and were focused on crossing the river to the Custer side. Regards AZ Ranger AZ, Years ago I was down in that timber. It's not an area good for passing along communication. I still think a better leader would have made sure the men knew what was going on. However, in the froth of battle maybe it was the best exit possible. My friend and I had been guided down into the timber near the river. It was claustrophobic. Explains how Rubio and others were able to hide there until sundown.
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Post by montrose on Oct 12, 2015 18:52:22 GMT -6
Shaw,
Okay, their was a leader failure in the retreat. But what leaders. M and A Company organized as units and took part in the breakout. G Company fell apart as a unit, and ended up a random collection of individuals. Only 3 soldiers made it out with the rest of the battalion.
The company commander abandoned his role as company commander. He stole a horse from a private and fled. He made no effort to organize and lead his company, in any manner. From primary sources, it appears the civilian messenger Herendeen took over command, not the sergeants and corporals of this company.
G Company appears broken at officer and NCO level. The individual soldiers showed bravery and courage. The majority of the company privates managed to hide in the shrubbery and rejoin the regiment, not because of, but despite of, their company officers and NCOs.
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Post by dave on Oct 12, 2015 22:14:38 GMT -6
I think the starting out was as good as could be expected. That the word did not get everyone tells more about the conditions in the timber than anything to me. I don't think you need to be personally invited to go to your horse. If you can't see others leaving you could not see Indians infiltrating.
Once mounted the egress was through defiles. The first company according William O Taylor was mounted in fours and at lest the outside troopers had their revolvers in hand with an extended arm. The problem begins with the charge gait of the horses. Not all our equal in speed and stamina. Not many of the riders could stay in the saddle with an independent seat. That means they had to hold on and if the speed was relatively new to them then their focus was to hang and look straight ahead. I think there were some experienced CQB soldiers at the quick stop at the river. Ryan describes the fighting. Others were not as ready for CQB and were focused on crossing the river to the Custer side. Regards AZ Ranger Steve the hi-lighted line above is pure gold. What a great statement that I had never thought of before. Good work. Regards Dave
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Post by wild on Oct 13, 2015 1:16:42 GMT -6
All the horses were held in a claering to the rear of the firing line.Any movement of the horses being brought forward would trigger a general movement. It think maybe a number of soldiers choose to remain behind . The timber covered the break out .If Reno had tried the same maneuver in the open from a standing start he would not broken away . As for covering the retreat this is strictly for Hollywood. Changing from one formation to another while in contact with the enemy is nigh on impossible and certainly not with those troops. Anything other than a hell for leather charge was a waste of time and energy. We have a great love convoluted maneuvers on these boards.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Oct 13, 2015 6:00:15 GMT -6
I think the starting out was as good as could be expected. That the word did not get everyone tells more about the conditions in the timber than anything to me. I don't think you need to be personally invited to go to your horse. If you can't see others leaving you could not see Indians infiltrating. Once mounted the egress was through defiles. The first company according William O Taylor was mounted in fours and at lest the outside troopers had their revolvers in hand with an extended arm. The problem begins with the charge gait of the horses. Not all our equal in speed and stamina. Not many of the riders could stay in the saddle with an independent seat. That means they had to hold on and if the speed was relatively new to them then their focus was to hang and look straight ahead. I think there were some experienced CQB soldiers at the quick stop at the river. Ryan describes the fighting. Others were not as ready for CQB and were focused on crossing the river to the Custer side. Regards AZ Ranger Yes there is a difference between Taylor and either Varnum RCOI or another officer. Varnum confirms your different horse speed issue nicely, he leaving late for want of a place in line but racing past all the other horses once in the open. I recall Taylor lost a Stirrup on the brush (not easy to do, a lot of force involved to accomplish) so at various times on the cow path out they may have crowded it and got their 4's. I am kind of ignorant of the calvary meaning of defiles: " a narrow path", "to move in a file"?? Is that big sage down along the Timber. You know that tree like stuff that's 5-8 feet tall with 4-6 inch caliper branches that becomes like running through a maze? Or is it just clusters and groves of willows ( 1 inch caliper growing like a bamboo thicket) ? Where do I find Ryan's story? For Ryan I like 10 Years with Custer As far as vegetation in the bottom it is all in agriculture and the areas that are not are still disturbed areas. The difference is probably non existent with Taylor describing the start and Varnum what occurred at speed. That would be my guess. Regards AZ Ranger
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