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Post by benteen on Oct 3, 2015 14:57:23 GMT -6
So anyway this is what I see there as the only defensive plan possible with 500 Indians to your North and 500 to your South. Magpie, Although I appreciate your opinions on what ground to defend, spacing between soldiers, what plan to follow etc. I mirror Richards opinion. These men had no time to decide where and how they were going to defend. They were hit to hard, to quick, and by to many Indians to do anything. They were rolled over like a tidal wave. It was a rout. Be Well Dan
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Post by magpie on Oct 3, 2015 15:04:30 GMT -6
OH I FORGOT DO YOU SEE THE TRICKLE DOWN and then INTO DEEP RAVINE from this.
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Post by magpie on Oct 3, 2015 15:16:39 GMT -6
So Dan: You think Custer would just sit down and crumble and not try to establish a defense? I think he tried. I think the triangle of Ridge tops is the only option. Looking for someone to give me another. Not sure if Custer could figure in advance he'd be so thin. It's easy from satilite and topo. Again I see the Indians rolling up his rear taking out 30-50% of his force from behind as they ran scared out of their minds. I see 50 men running down from those ridges into the cover in Deep Ravine and hiding there. At the RIOC at least 3 men said the Indians were volley firing. I think the Indians got their new guns celibrated a little, shot corpses and then decided to try volley firing on these bottled up men in Deep Ravine and that's your Volley firing with George A Custer dead by the time Benteens arrival.
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Post by wild on Oct 3, 2015 15:27:36 GMT -6
Hi Fred Thanks for that . More pleasant atmosphere around here of late. Good debates. Cheers Richard
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Post by benteen on Oct 3, 2015 15:55:56 GMT -6
So Dan: You think Custer would just sit down and crumble and not try to establish a defense? I think he tried. . No, Magpie, I dont think Custer just sat down, sorry if i gave that impression. I think Custer was capable of forming a defense, my point was that in my opinion they didnt have a chance to. The enemy has a vote in the outcome of a battle. They were the aggressors and decided where and how this battle would be fought. When C company charged, it was over. I co in one place, L in another, and C in another. They took full advantage of this and swarmed over them one by one. Be Well Dan
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Post by dave on Oct 3, 2015 17:05:19 GMT -6
magpie Your post partially quoted here was first rate:
...We know Custer is not the best soldier but we know he may be the quickest. Speed may have been his crutch, he had dominated by speed alone and lazily didn't learn the fundamentals. I want the best defense that is available on this exact topography. Anyway I see this Calhoun line thrown out sometime across Galls advance and Custer running the Custer Ridge top up LSH and maybe initially as personal recon to deep ravine along the "South Skirmish line". As I see it this is the only defense. He never got the chance as the mounted warriors tor into his rear end and as described in the RCOI they put flankers 50 feet out with Winchesters level across their pomel and fire down your line. Warriors coup counting from behind. They rolled up his line before he could set it up.
Good work. Regards Dave
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Post by magpie on Oct 3, 2015 21:31:06 GMT -6
Thanks Dan and Dave: Yes I think the Indians were driving it and one step ahead at every turn. I think they purposefully drove him to poor ground. But defenses can be made and one can get lucky and everything can change. Look at what would have happened if Benteen had been hit early. So I say to those who say my plan could not be put in motion then what plan could. What would Custer be doing? Custer's faced too many battles to not be putting something together on the fly. Unless as my Cousin believes that he was incapacitated early. I am more in belief the Indians were ready, ambushed him at Ford B and then with the counter attack their narratives give cut him off from Medicine Tail. A counter attack by young poorly armed warriors hiden behind the cliffs around the Ford. I kind of like the idea of Custer's Calvary laughingly running from the Indian infantry (young men, on foot and poorly armed) and then (hell lets add some of Fred's boiling dust) Older veteran mounted warriors in full regallia painted like demons and screaming like them come out off this dust. Your back turned, your regiment in file headed North. The Warriors galloping at 30 miles an hour will make contact in 120 seconds or less.
Along with Fred's book I want to get the book with the complete pictograph collection. That faded buffalo hide seems the only on with a soldiers on foot. Everywhere it seem mounted soldiers cut down from behind. I think a warrior would be prouder to put face to face combat on his art, so I really believe these represent exactly what happened.
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Post by magpie on Oct 4, 2015 8:18:20 GMT -6
TWO MORE POINTS:
The 18 crosses in the Calhoun sector form a long curved line with average spacing of 60 yards between men running from Calhoun Hill to Deep Ravine via Calhoun Ridge and Calhoun Coulee. Impossible land for defense. I think the junior officer tasked with this threw it out the wrong way. I think it was intended to go straight from Calhoun Hill to Deeep Ravine (That prominent Ridge). Fog of War.
I realized the bulk of Reno's dehorsed men were bypassed by the Indians. Most went to cover and reached Reno that night. So in the Custer sector what if you had the same phenomenon dehorsed men running down hill for cover (Deep Ravine) and largely ignored by the Mounted Warriors bingo the Deep Ravine crowd.
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Post by wild on Oct 4, 2015 8:55:32 GMT -6
Magpie He had to take his saddles and spare ammo, jettison the horses , mass his carbines [everyman firing]and use volley fire to inflict as many casualties as possible . This from a position overlooking and controlling the approaches I think he got LSH correct ...trajectory of rounds in his favour. Cheers
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Post by magpie on Oct 4, 2015 18:21:23 GMT -6
Magpie He had to take his saddles and spare ammo, jettison the horses , mass his carbines [everyman firing]and use volley fire to inflict as many casualties as possible . This from a position overlooking and controlling the approaches I think he got LSH correct ...trajectory of rounds in his favour. Cheers Lets consider the massed fire issue: Take one clean sheet of white paper, a blue ball point and a red or a black ball point and a cheap dollar store ruler. Make 20 single dots with the blue pen in the middle of the page representing your massed soldiers (put them as you believe they should be). Take the red pen and make 50 dots around your 20 soldiers. Indians don't mass so you've got to have an almost random distribution around your mass of men. To be accurate a lot of Indians will try to approach both ends of your line, rectangle or oval. Take your cheap ruler (no draftsman's, architectural or engineering instruments you want your rather imperfect line to represent real firing) draw one line from each blue dot towards the Indian target of your choice but continue through the target to the edge of the paper. Repeat for each red dot start at a red dot and draw your line to a soldier target dot and continue your line through the soldier dot to the edge of the paper. Each soldier and each Indian gets one shot. Make a table of casualties (Indian and Soldier). Count the blue dots that have been touched by an Indian line ( path of his bullet) and count the number of Indian dots that have been touched by a soldier line ( path of soldiers bullet). Be fair and honest and make sure all lines continue through the target to the edge of the paper, If necessary get a friend to add up the score. If after this you feel you still want to mass your men post a copy of your work as I would like to see. I agree on the Horses, I don't think you have time to unsaddle. Critical to get the saddle bags and canteens and don't let the soldiers abandon weapons or amunition as they move.
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Post by wild on Oct 5, 2015 0:46:34 GMT -6
Hi Magpie I don't have 3 dimensional paper . Cheers
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Post by wild on Oct 5, 2015 3:06:44 GMT -6
Magpie The object is to laydown sufficent directed fire so as to make the individual Indian think twice about exposing himself .[never like that phrase] The object is to deny him free passage but to have him pay a price for every yard he advances. Controlled volley fire is so much more effective and it increases the morale of your own men ; they have their comrades fighting along side them and they are hitting back. The much vaunted defence of Reno Hill was a professional disgrace . The Indians were allowed to use the command as target practice. Cheers
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Post by magpie on Oct 5, 2015 7:48:43 GMT -6
Magpie The object is to laydown sufficent directed fire so as to make the individual Indian think twice about exposing himself .[never like that phrase] The object is to deny him free passage but to have him pay a price for every yard he advances. Controlled volley fire is so much more effective and it increases the morale of your own men ; they have their comrades fighting along side them and they are hitting back. The much vaunted defence of Reno Hill was a professional disgrace . The Indians were allowed to use the command as target practice. Cheers The pen exercise was to show you by concentrating your men every Indian bullet fired into the concentration would likely hit one of your men while every bullet fired by your men would likely not hit an Indian. So your intent on entering a fire fight and yes it will keep them at bay. Reno entered in one for ten minutes on the bottoms, his skirmish line there, he expended 1/3 of his ammunition in 10 minutes. He had killed one Indian a suicide boy. When he stopped firing the Indians closed in two minutes. Other things to consider is in the Civil War it took 600 bullets for a KIA probably 100 for each casualty. By Korea it was upwards of 100,000 rounds and in Vietnam it was 240,000 rounds. I think these figures are inflated but even if you use 10% you get the idea. Volley firing, Indians loved it. For hundreds of years they would pop up to initiate it. You fire. It takes you 20 seconds to reload. They move 20 seconds closer. One Indian pops up taunting you. You fire again. They move 20 seconds closer. Now it's goal to goal. They really jump up. You shoot. They close, they beat your brains out with a war club and now they have your rifles, your clothes, your knife, your wife and your car keys.
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Post by wild on Oct 5, 2015 8:58:06 GMT -6
Magpie If the position you adopt is of a higher elevation [as I suggested] incoming will have a much reduced killing zone while outgoing will have the optimum. Your popping up can be countered by platoon firing. Your point re the number of rounds it took to score a hit fails to take into account the fact that much firing is not always to hit a target but to prevent movement by the enemy or deny a position to him or even recce by fire or even for morale . I'm saying Custer could have gone down fighting. If it was found that Custer had fought a last stand then Benteen would have been given a revolver and a glass of whiskey. Cheers.
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Post by magpie on Oct 5, 2015 9:18:59 GMT -6
Magpie If the position you adopt is of a higher elevation [as I suggested] incoming will have a much reduced killing zone while outgoing will have the optimum. Your popping up can be countered by platoon firing. Your point re the number of rounds it took to score a hit fails to take into account the fact that much firing is not always to hit a target but to prevent movement by the enemy or deny a position to him or even recce by fire or even for morale . I'm saying Custer could have gone down fighting. If it was found that Custer had fought a last stand then Benteen would have been given a revolver and a glass of whiskey. Cheers. Not sure I'm following Wild: If I concentrate I have to give up on my triangle that is covering the back of my lines. On a single hill with out fox holes/rifle pits ( I have no shovel, no 8 inch combat knife (don't tell the men but it's in the kit to be a shovel)) or single ridge the Indians can fire from all sides without worry of hitting their own. Don't understand what platoon firing you mean. I'd pefer my men to fire across at (+) and (-) angles to close lanes of attack?
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