Man verses Horse Marathon.

[magpie]

Hi all: I have been very frustrated with the timing in these calvary movements. So much so I'm ready to shoot my horse and walk. Interesting there is an annual race called the "Man versus Horse Marathon" in the UK run for over 30 years over 21-24 rough, hilly miles. Times are usually 2 hours and ten minutes for man or beast. Twice a human runner has beaten the 50 horses the race usually draws.

I do not want to exaggerate my abilities or miles in the saddle at best 150 miles with most on 20 mile (straight line by crow or laser measure) cattle drives 2 riders 200 cows, 180 calves over dryer every bit as rough or more country from sun up till dark. The horses always Galloped the last mile to the barn in the dark, they wanted to. There's just something inherently wrong with the concepts and timing. I remember a shorter ride of which Hershey galloped a mile to the first gate, at most 5 minutes to open and close. Then he galloped to up a hill, down the other side, then across a draw and up to a hill ever as prominent as 3411 or Weir's (3 to 3 1/2 miles total in 15 to 20 minutes tops with the one 5 minute rest)  he didn't seem to have any issues we took in the sites of a June pasture our biggest at 5 square miles and jogged home all would be 7 miles out 2 hours most.

[Beth]

Oct 1, 2015 13:03:36 GMT -6 magpie said:

Hi all: I have been very frustrated with the timing in these calvary movements. So much so I'm ready to shoot my horse and walk. Interesting there is an annual race called the "Man versus Horse Marathon" in the UK run for over 30 years over 21-24 rough, hilly miles. Times are usually 2 hours and ten minutes for man or beast. Twice a human runner has beaten the 50 horses the race usually draws.

I do not want to exaggerate my abilities or miles in the saddle at best 150 miles with most on 20 mile (straight line by crow or laser measure) cattle drives 2 riders 200 cows, 180 calves over dryer every bit as rough or more country from sun up till dark. The horses always Galloped the last mile to the barn in the dark, they wanted to. There's just something inherently wrong with the concepts and timing. I remember a shorter ride of which Hershey galloped a mile to the first gate, at most 5 minutes to open and close. Then he galloped to up a hill, down the other side, then across a draw and up to a hill ever as prominent as 3411 or Weir's (3 to 3 1/2 miles total in 15 to 20 minutes tops with the one 5 minute rest)  he didn't seem to have any issues we took in the sites of a June pasture our biggest at 5 square miles and jogged home all would be 7 miles out 2 hours most.

Whose timing are you using and how did they get their numbers.  Are their numbers based on cherry picked reports that fit their own theory of events or are their numbers based on as many references as possible to establish a timeline and then seeing how it lines up with reported events?

Also I believe and please someone tell me if I am wrong with my impressions, that when you are talking cavalry horse speeds there is a set expected pace  a horse at a walk should cover x amount of ground so on.

Finally you might want to compare what you think happened at LBH with other reports. I am sure that everyone here will tell you that just when you think you really understand what happened, someone will present a new discovery, information or theory that will send you scrambling to take it in.

[magpie]

There is enough wiggle room people move key location elements across the greater battle field and then use the wiggle room to built their case. I am trying to find the common thread in each narrative or series where an individual tries both to remember and to communicate on numerous occasions. I am also using my knowledge of the ecology or the biome and my gift of visualization in my head.

I have not found a satisfactory explaination:

1.) must be simple (as Fred maintains)

2.) It must keep Custer's mistakes to less than 3. He was a battle hardened competent commander of 15 years. Sorry folks he just wouldn't make that many

[Beth]

Oct 1, 2015 14:08:50 GMT -6 magpie said:

There is enough wiggle room people move key location elements across the greater battle field and then use the wiggle room to built their case. I am trying to find the common thread in each narrative or series where an individual tries both to remember and to communicate on numerous occasions. I am also using my knowledge of the ecology or the biome and my gift of visualization in my head.

I have not found a satisfactory explaination:

1.) must be simple (as Fred maintains)

2.) It must keep Custer's mistakes to less than 3. He was a battle hardened competent commander of 15 years. Sorry folks he just wouldn't make that many

I don't know if I agree on that Custer would be limited to 3 mistakes however perhaps in MHO it can be summarized to one.  Custer was planning his battle based on bad/wrong information and assumptions about his enemy.  He could have made the right call every single place but since he started off with bad information each call took him further away from a possible victory.

Also you have to consider that --as much as a certain number of people don't want to admit--the NA might just have been the better fighting force that day.

[dave]

In the modern age we live in why would anyone want to ride a horse? Pat Brady was my hero and of course  "Nellybelle" was a modern beauty. No saddle sores riding jeeps.
Regards
Dave

[Beth]

Oct 1, 2015 15:20:39 GMT -6 dave said:

In the modern age we live in why would anyone want to ride a horse? Pat Brady was my hero and of course  "Nellybelle" was a modern beauty. No saddle sores riding jeeps.
Regards
Dave

Because there are places a horse can go that Nellybelle can't follow.

[dave]

Beth
Then I don't want to go there. Travel by jeep or inner tube sounds good.
Regards
Dave

[magpie]

Dave if the horse is trotting I agree. The officers had walking horses. The men were beaten to death at a trott. I think it would be like being drunk after a while.

[Beth]

I wonder if they taught recruits how to ride or if their butts were just thrown in a saddle and it was figured that they would eventually they would figure it out. I suspect that beyond the West Point trained it was the later.

Even though it was the age of the horse and buggy--a riding horse were expensive to keep for the average person perhaps beyond the means of most recruits.

[magpie]

I was just thrown in a saddle went 30 miles and wore the skin off the inside of my knees. Had the scars for 25 years. Secret: don't engage butt, swing in saddle you'll never make it on butt. I never let the horse trot more than a few seconds. If the Army was smart they should have had 2-300 rounds of ammunition, 2 pistols with a eye for cord attachment, 2 full 2 quart canteens, a bed roll, shelter "tent" canvas, food, a cup, a 8 inch combat knife that could be mounted on the carbine and a 40 feet of rope. Made the men walk and the horse carry the load. Officers and Scouts mounted with 2 saddle horses. They'd of got there just as fast and when approaching combat you'd mount and start with a "fresh" horse and give a man an hour at a smooth gait and he'd be "rested" and ready for combat. You'd arrive on time and in a flash. The walking would give the trooper the endurance of a Spartan. You'd have plenty of water and ammunition and you could engage in a long distance fire fight and keep the Indians at bay for longer than ten minutes which is all Reno could do before conserving ammunition. Indians closed in a 90-120 seconds after the long distance firing ( a modern version of a fire fight) stopped. Of course that's me the rest of you will tear me to pieces on this but 5 years ago I was walking 30 miles each Sunday at 55 years of age.

[Beth]

Oct 1, 2015 19:29:23 GMT -6 magpie said:

I was just thrown in a saddle went 30 miles and wore the skin off the inside of my knees. Had the scars for 25 years. Secret: don't engage butt, swing in saddle you'll never make it on butt. I never let the horse trot more than a few seconds. If the Army was smart they should have had 2-300 rounds of ammunition, 2 pistols with a eye for cord attachment, 2 full 2 quart canteens, a bed roll, shelter "tent" canvas, food, a cup, a 8 inch combat knife that could be mounted on the carbine and a 40 feet of rope. Made the men walk and the horse carry the load. Officers and Scouts mounted with 2 saddle horses. They'd of got there just as fast and when approaching combat you'd mount and start with a "fresh" horse and give a man an hour at a smooth gait and he'd be "rested" and ready for combat. You'd arrive on time and in a flash. The walking would give the trooper the endurance of a Spartan. You'd have plenty of water and ammunition and you could engage in a long distance fire fight and keep the Indians at bay for longer than ten minutes which is all Reno could do before conserving ammunition. Indians closed in a 90-120 seconds after the long distance firing ( a modern version of a fire fight) stopped. Of course that's me the rest of you will tear me to pieces on this but 5 years ago I was walking 30 miles each Sunday at 55 years of age.

Are you talking of walking from the Powder River Depot or the Divide?  I believe quite a few walked from Fort Abraham Lincoln to Powder Depot because of the lack of horses.

30 miles! I am impressed and envious, I used to bike like that but hiking has never been my thing. Is there a reason you are no longer tramping all over?

[magpie]

Oct 1, 2015 19:52:40 GMT -6 Beth said:

Oct 1, 2015 19:29:23 GMT -6 magpie said:

I was just thrown in a saddle went 30 miles and wore the skin off the inside of my knees. Had the scars for 25 years. Secret: don't engage butt, swing in saddle you'll never make it on butt. I never let the horse trot more than a few seconds. If the Army was smart they should have had 2-300 rounds of ammunition, 2 pistols with a eye for cord attachment, 2 full 2 quart canteens, a bed roll, shelter "tent" canvas, food, a cup, a 8 inch combat knife that could be mounted on the carbine and a 40 feet of rope. Made the men walk and the horse carry the load. Officers and Scouts mounted with 2 saddle horses. They'd of got there just as fast and when approaching combat you'd mount and start with a "fresh" horse and give a man an hour at a smooth gait and he'd be "rested" and ready for combat. You'd arrive on time and in a flash. The walking would give the trooper the endurance of a Spartan. You'd have plenty of water and ammunition and you could engage in a long distance fire fight and keep the Indians at bay for longer than ten minutes which is all Reno could do before conserving ammunition. Indians closed in a 90-120 seconds after the long distance firing ( a modern version of a fire fight) stopped. Of course that's me the rest of you will tear me to pieces on this but 5 years ago I was walking 30 miles each Sunday at 55 years of age.

Are you talking of walking from the Powder River Depot or the Divide?  I believe quite a few walked from Fort Abraham Lincoln to Powder Depot because of the lack of horses.

30 miles! I am impressed and envious, I used to bike like that but hiking has never been my thing. Is there a reason you are no longer tramping all over?

time, same ground over and over (bordom) but mostly I just have one day off and it's time. The bike: I forgot the numbers but you have to go 5 miles for every walked mile. I liked those english bike saddles but you probably know they were found not to be so healthy for the circulation.

[magpie]

I am talking I'd walk the men up to the time of attack. On horses backs these guy's are not making even 4 miles an hour which the average conditioned walker will do. That's what was so amazing this english race is showing a man the equal of a horse at marathon distances over rough ground. That's a man with no packs. I want the horse to carry that much and leave the man free except leading the horse. You need the spotters and leaders mounted but should have a spare saddled to make the switch at a drop of the hat. Very good horses for Scouts and Officers capable of out running Indian ponies to do the recon, trail blazing, and spot threats. While were on the subject Kerosene cook stoves 2 per troop would be ideal. No smoke.

[Beth]

Oct 1, 2015 20:15:35 GMT -6 magpie said:

I am talking I'd walk the men up to the time of attack. On horses backs these guy's are not making even 4 miles an hour which the average conditioned walker will do. That's what was so amazing this english race is showing a man the equal of a horse at marathon distances over rough ground.

Are you using Gray for your times?   I believe that you have said that you've ridden similar terrain?  Does that number make sense?

[magpie]

I am pulling an average figure out of my head. Crows nest to Ford A is how long? How many hours did it take to reach it? They were at the nest in the predawn but it's pretty fuzzy as to where and time started? coffee cooking etc. I don't have these things at my finger tips as I am more interested in Ford A to Ford B though the others are trying to indoctrinate me into that paradym. I mentioned on a fresh horse remembering 20 minutes top to go 3 1/2 miles with just as much grade change and a gate to open and close. I don't know for a certainty but as I have said the cow ponies did 30 miles at least in a 12 hour day and then galloped the last mile to the barn running faster and faster as we approached. They did this odyssy only twice a year and they all lived at least 20 years and were never shod.