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Post by tubman13 on Nov 18, 2018 9:32:49 GMT -6
There is much interesting information in the preceding, many think including Fox and Donohue(in his new book0 that Benteen would have pretty clear sailing to a Calhoun hook up. They point out that Knipe, Boston Custer, and Martini got through with no issue. They discount that Martini's horse was shot, that Benteen went o the river and witnessed Reno's break out, that Custer was harried at Luce and Nye-Cartwright, and even if Reno was not in need, the packs took a fair period to get to Benteen. The NA's had fully backfilled Custer's back trail by then. Loaded mules move at a much different pace than unencumbered cavalry. Both Fox and Donohue seem to think Custer's right and left wings sat around with their thumbs up their butts. I think they sealed their own fate by being separated, fending encroachment, after distancing themselves from any reasonable means of support. I think they knew once they returned from the Ford D foray they were pretty well fixed in the positions they attained, with a thousand or more NA's between and around them
The only thing that Benteen would have accomplished was the death of his men, that of the pack train, while delivering much appreciated supplies to the NA's. Lastly Reno and his wounded would have been the next to get whacked.
Regards, Tom
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Post by fred on Nov 18, 2018 10:24:10 GMT -6
There is much interesting information in the preceding, many think including Fox and Donohue(in his new book0 that Benteen would have pretty clear sailing to a Calhoun hook up. They point out that Knipe, Boston Custer, and Martini got through with no issue. Tom, This is one of the things that drives me wild about this whole affair. Look at what these "many" think. Look at the context involving each of those men, then compare all that to Benteen's context. I do not think you are correct about Fox believing Benteen could get through and I have not read Mike Donahue's book yet, but if either believes Benteen could have made it by the 3:30-ish mark, they are delusional. First of all, take Kanipe. He left the command before Reno dismounted and Custer stopped at 3,411, so using Kanipe as an example is patently ludicrous. Second, Martini... we know there were at least 22 Indians on the east side of the river when Cooke wrote the note. Martini was given that note not far from the head of Cedar Coulee, so he had no real danger along the way with the exception of a lone shot to his horse's flank or rear. That could have come from anywhere, and is just another reason why Custer going to Weir Point is also ridiculous. Some Indian, probably on that high ground, popped off at Martini and hit his horse. Had Custer gone to Weir, none of that would have happened. Third, Boston... by the time Boston reached his brothers, the situation was already changing dramatically and in all likelihood, Boston's trip was more harrowing. The saving grace with Boston is that he followed the command's trail, thereby missing the growing number of warriors on the east bank, scaling the heights, and eventually reaching the top where Benteen chased them off. As for Benteen, look at the growing number of Indians east of the river and the increasing difficulty of the terrain. You have been all over that area: Cedar was tough to negotiate, thereby forcing a detour; Benteen would have to have climbed Luce Ridge and crossed that and Nye-Cartwright; then moved into Deep Coulee; out of the coulee and across the flats.... And Mike and others believe that could happen? All the while increasingly large numbers of warriors crossing at Ford B, entering Deep Coulee and its flats... etc., etc., etc. Where is the common sense? Where is the military thinking here? Is there more regard for personal theory and less for context and the issues of terrain? And people wonder why I get frustrated at times. If you have a theory, fine; but please adapt it to common sense, logic, the flow of battle, terrain, the enemy situation, and the troops you have, along with their capabilities. Yikes!!!!Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by tubman13 on Nov 18, 2018 11:58:09 GMT -6
That was my take on what I read, I really got a great deal out of the Fox book. Also, I think Donohue may have put GAC on Weir. Like I said to Ray the other day, I was just a lowly E-7 what do I know? I was however, for a while an umpire and I try to call them as I see them. I sent a review of Donohue's book to the LBHA in August, let see if they print it.
Regards, Tom
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Post by AZ Ranger on Nov 19, 2018 8:47:05 GMT -6
I think Weir is so close to Cedar, Middle, and West it would seem that someone would think to look from there. Weir would have blocked parts of the valley and especially anything close to it.
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Post by alquedahunter on Nov 19, 2018 12:50:54 GMT -6
Ray, I think Benteen stated at the RCOI that his scout orders were to proceed to the left from valley to valley until reaching the LBH or until new orders were received. I know he received messages from Custer early in the scout and I think one of those was where he was told to continue the scout to the LBH. AZ Ranger has ridden that route and can attest to its difficulty and the time it takes to cover that ground. Ditto, this is correct. I believe 2 messages after he cut left were forthcoming.
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Post by weekendwarrior on Dec 7, 2018 4:38:02 GMT -6
I'm a little late to the discussion but here are a few thoughts...
1. An unidentified US Trooper (most likely Foley) was observed riding towards Weir Point before he was KIA. 2. It appears likely that at least Captain Weir and TRP D arrived on Weir Point as the Keogh wing was still actively engaged in combat operations before they were overran. If we aren't going to entirely dismiss eyewitnesses like PVT Pigford, it's likely that most of the command witnessed the end at Calhoun Hill and the battle moving north. 3. I know of an experiment that was conducted several years back that indicated a guidon could be seen from Calhoun Hill on Weir Point, and less distinctly from Last Stand Hill.
With the above in mind, I believe that it's almost certain that members of the Keogh BN (Corporal Foley for one) were aware of the presence of US personnel on Weir Point, and I'd go as far to argue that Custer's immediate command team would have become or been made aware of this as well. As tragic as it sounds, I believe Custer held onto the hope of relief until the very end. Perhaps one of the older Custer brothers ordered Boston Custer and Autie Reed to try and break out for Deep Ravine once it became clear LSH was going to be overrran. No way to tell.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 7, 2018 7:11:40 GMT -6
I think Custer was on offense and moving north to get around to the north end of the Big Village. I think the Foley marker is close to what I call the western travel corridor. I believe that at least part the 5 companies moved straight across MTC climbed out moving to Luce and NC. They crossed Deep Coulée and continued on to the Calhoun Area and north on battle ridge.
I believe that at least part if not 2 companies went closer toward MTF. This would fit with Martin stating that he was within 600 yards of the ford. It would fit with Curley stating the gray horses continue down MTC and it would fit where private Peter Thompson states he saw some fighting. Gerry Schultz presented a paper at the 2017 CBHMA meeting in Hard1n on Thompson. One of the illustrations shows Thompson's viewscape from his location along the river.
This year will be a great time to be there. The trifecta in fact. The Friends will be there, CBHMA will be in Hardin, and LBHA will be in Sheridan.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by AZ Ranger on Dec 7, 2018 7:42:26 GMT -6
I am a visual learner so my first choice is to go on the ground and see for myself. I also like maps so I keep a work in progress map for several things on Google maps. Its fun for me to start it up since it goes to the Benteen ride I did in 2010 as it zooms in. So what I am showing here is not fact or any final product. I don't want it end. What is has is where I think Custer entered MTC and where at least some of the troopers went straight across climbing out and moving into contact at Luce. The light green lines are potential movement down Middle Coulée. Notice that if you follow the ridgeline Cedar and Middle hit MTC around the same location. Crossing MTC and moving up following the blue line is a ride I did several years ago. This year I rode with my Crow friend who is a Marine also and when we exited MTC he went slightly to the right where the yellow line is located. At this point we had chose the same egress point because it looks obvious from MTC. When my friend went to the right we come up directly into the red line representing Luce artifacts. For me that is as close as I am going to get to the actual route. It may be wrong but it fits within what I have to work with. On another board we called the red line a running W. When I was there this summer I realized the shape was the shape of the terrain feature which had a drop off to the west. Regards AZ Ranger
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Post by latetotheparty on Feb 6, 2019 13:03:43 GMT -6
I'm a little late to the discussion but here are a few thoughts... 1. An unidentified US Trooper (most likely Foley) was observed riding towards Weir Point before he was KIA. 2. It appears likely that at least Captain Weir and TRP D arrived on Weir Point as the Keogh wing was still actively engaged in combat operations before they were overran. If we aren't going to entirely dismiss eyewitnesses like PVT Pigford, it's likely that most of the command witnessed the end at Calhoun Hill and the battle moving north. 3. I know of an experiment that was conducted several years back that indicated a guidon could be seen from Calhoun Hill on Weir Point, and less distinctly from Last Stand Hill. With the above in mind, I believe that it's almost certain that members of the Keogh BN (Corporal Foley for one) were aware of the presence of US personnel on Weir Point, and I'd go as far to argue that Custer's immediate command team would have become or been made aware of this as well. As tragic as it sounds, I believe Custer held onto the hope of relief until the very end. Perhaps one of the older Custer brothers ordered Boston Custer and Autie Reed to try and break out for Deep Ravine once it became clear LSH was going to be overrran. No way to tell.
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Post by latetotheparty on Feb 6, 2019 13:17:29 GMT -6
I know I'm very late to this and I'm only a novice. Fascinating subject that I've commented on before (thanks for the heads up Fred, now I'm registered). So many questions but an incredible field of study.
Does it make any sense at all that the final bugle call heard was to initiate the E. Company charge/skirmish line and this act was to open up that lane for the remaining riders to seek out help? Whether or not different commands could see each other and whether or not Custer is still alive at this point someone has to go for help. Clear a path and send whoever is left on horse. I may be wrong but I think two of the riders were Foley and Butler? The command collapsing backwards to LSH. The bugle call, the E. Company charge, the dispatch of the riders. Speculation only, Butler was run down and fought to the end (horse wounded?), Foley clears himself but tragically takes his own life. Would the Indians charging Weir have been in between Foley and Weir's troops? That may explain Foley's suicide (Christ, I cleared those 1,000 Indians now I got another 1,000 to deal with, I'm outta here???)
I had commented prior but if the horses at LSH were shot for a barricade, were those "riders" the last remaining horses?
Fascinating subject, thanks for having me.
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Post by noggy on Feb 9, 2019 21:14:18 GMT -6
I know I'm very late to this and I'm only a novice. Fascinating subject that I've commented on before (thanks for the heads up Fred, now I'm registered). So many questions but an incredible field of study. Does it make any sense at all that the final bugle call heard was to initiate the E. Company charge/skirmish line and this act was to open up that lane for the remaining riders to seek out help? Whether or not different commands could see each other and whether or not Custer is still alive at this point someone has to go for help. Clear a path and send whoever is left on horse. I may be wrong but I think two of the riders were Foley and Butler? The command collapsing backwards to LSH. The bugle call, the E. Company charge, the dispatch of the riders. Speculation only, Butler was run down and fought to the end (horse wounded?), Foley clears himself but tragically takes his own life. Would the Indians charging Weir have been in between Foley and Weir's troops? That may explain Foley's suicide (Christ, I cleared those 1,000 Indians now I got another 1,000 to deal with, I'm outta here???) I had commented prior but if the horses at LSH were shot for a barricade, were those "riders" the last remaining horses? Fascinating subject, thanks for having me. Hello, I`m more of a novice than you. Easily. Personally, I feel the fighting around LSH is hard to really hard get my head around. The reason is, it is often described as if the two companies are divisions or something.How many horses can we determine were shot by their owners, and not just perished under heavy fire as many soldiers did? When most of the command is dying, is sending word about a it thing? Or is it a desperate escape? Planned or not? Several bugles calls would have been heard. So was there a final one? Who heard what? Or called (is that the right word?)? One of the reasons I fail to quite grasp the LSH fighting, is perhaps because it is often described (the E and F companies) as divisions or something. Their movements are described so"grand", in a way. But likely it`s down to me not being able to connect all the actions with the times (yes Fred, I`m the only one in Norway who has your book, but still). I`m not sharp here, just returned from England watching my favorite team winning a football (soccer) match. Not sober, I think. As always, everything I write is probably off target, but I hope it made a little sense.. Alle the best,Noggy
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Post by weekendwarrior on Feb 9, 2019 23:18:39 GMT -6
It certainly is a possibility that the E Troop deployment was in part a screen to allow some riders to break away. I can't quote the account exactly, but I believe the maneuver described 5 personnel mounted and approx. 40 dismounted. For Foley, I just don't buy him as being one of the riders to cut out from Custer Hill. Donahue's book has some convincing info, but I just don't think his heavy Army mount could outrun Indian ponies after charging down Calhoun Coulee, riding for his life to Last Stand Hill, and then riding all the way from Last Stand Hill towards Butler Ridge. A bit too much cardio I think!
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