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Post by alquedahunter on Nov 16, 2018 9:41:24 GMT -6
Well I surely see it you guys way for sure. And then the BUT enters again. Alright, in the valley one I can't recall looked back and saw a nip from Reno and if I remember correctly someone with Reno. On the other hand Martin kinda alluded to it years later but stated only that they never asked him what really happened and he never told all he knew.And then there are 17 of which can be discounted possibly. But the fact that Benteen had items stolen cannot be totally blamed on 2 packers.I think in that place probably everyone who could was grabbing eating material and bedding as quick as they could.So stealing may not be the issue.Just being scared and hungery.Whiskey did fly over Frett , from somewhere. Thanks, I'm thinking one mule or two had barrels of whiskey instead of hardtack or ammo or bedding.Just asking and wondering.Thanks again
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Post by fred on Nov 16, 2018 11:14:11 GMT -6
And then the BUT enters again. Alright, in the valley one I can't recall looked back and saw a nip from Reno and if I remember correctly someone with Reno. On the other hand Martin kinda alluded to it years later but stated only that they never asked him what really happened and he never told all he knew.And then there are 17 of which can be discounted possibly. But the fact that Benteen had items stolen cannot be totally blamed on 2 packers.I think in that place probably everyone who could was grabbing eating material and bedding as quick as they could.So stealing may not be the issue.Just being scared and hungery.Whiskey did fly over Frett , from somewhere. Thanks, I'm thinking one mule or two had barrels of whiskey instead of hardtack or ammo or bedding.Just asking and wondering.Thanks again The guy who supposedly looked back was PVT William O. Taylor in A Company. Many years after the fact, he put together his diary. Now, if he assembled it later from earlier scribblings, we do not know, but it was written around 1918 if I am not mistaken. It is loaded with inaccuracies, including dates. Every other account we have of Reno's move down the valley tells us Reno was out front of his command, not behind. Plus, Taylor claimed he saw a "brown liquid." I would just love to know how he could have seen such from where he was and with the speeds and intervals of the troops. As for Martini, he wasn't there, so anything he had to say needs to be discounted. Martini only arrived (with Benteen) after Reno and many of his troops had already arrived on the hilltop. I would submit that the run from the timber, the crossing of the river, and the scaling of the bluffs-- all the while being chased by 900 Indians!!!-- might sober one up pretty quickly, so Martini's comments coming years later fall into the same category as many other of his questionable comments. Benteen's stolen items have nothing to do with anything other than the packers and others had needled their way into the pack area, some being caught and chased, others not. Even LT Mathey was chewed out by Benteen for being in that area. Now... were some drinking the night of the 25th? I have no doubt of it. It was pretty widely believed Reno and Weir were boozing it up together that night, but that has no bearing on either the valley fight or the retreat. And to me, those are the issues, not a "cooling off" period hours later. Best wishes, Fred.
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ray
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Once a FNG, always a FNG. It's a glorious status because ignorance is bliss.
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Post by ray on Nov 16, 2018 23:14:30 GMT -6
Hi guys,
Hey guys
One issue that I didn't see in this thread (sorry if I missed it) was that Reno and Benteen were both maligned after the battle by Custer's apologists like Frederick Whittaker, who sought (somewhat successfully) to make them scapegoats for the disaster (think Justice Kavanaugh for a modern example) to protect Custer's reputation. Benteen, a fighter, fought back; Reno tried but wasn't successful largely because of the perceived drinking problem. One report had Reno's face before the final retreat up the bluffs covered with lolling head, rolling eyes and covered with white foam (like a drunkard who vomited). A "massive" Court of Inquiry held at Reno's request in 1879 rejected the slander like this and dismissed charges as without merit. Whether or not this means anything in terms of what actually transpired seems to be in the eyes of the beholder, especially these days. In those days, it probably meant something to those aware of it, but neither Benteen's nor Reno's careers benefitted in any way from demonstrated leadership and bravery (as witnessed at various times by various witnesses) or success (as determined by survival in dire circumstances). Going back a little earlier in the post-battle days, Custer's Rabbi (modern terminology) LTG Sheridan sat on recommendations to appoint Reno and Benteen to vacant positions in the 7th Cavalry, something that in other times may have been virtually automatic.
Blessings,
Ray
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ray
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Once a FNG, always a FNG. It's a glorious status because ignorance is bliss.
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Post by ray on Nov 16, 2018 23:25:36 GMT -6
If Benteen had continued the scout all the way to the LBH river, Reno probably would not have moved from the hilltop. Once Custer was finished the Indians would have returned to the hilltop, where they most likely would have wiped Reno out. Then when they found Benteen off in the distance, it would have been another wipe out. So instead of having markers mostly in one location, there would be markers in 3 locations and no survivors out of 12 companies. Hey Colt,
Mr. Logic here. I am unaware that Custer ordered Benteen all the way over to the LBH River, which concept has so many red flags raising (like, have people suggesting this SEEN the terrain, even on a topographic map). When I computer modelled the movement to contact up Reno Creek, results had Benteen's patrol rejoining Reno Creek just ahead of (or, in one iteration, just behind) the pack train. To me it seems that Benteen couldn't possibly have covered that ground even at a sustained gallop for an hour, something AZ Ranger will tell me is impossible. So what were Custer's specific orders to Benteen. I seem to recall that they were known.
Blessings,
Ray
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ray
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Once a FNG, always a FNG. It's a glorious status because ignorance is bliss.
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Post by ray on Nov 16, 2018 23:34:21 GMT -6
The subject, of course, will never go away, so it is like preaching God to a coven, but there it is. Best wishes, Fred. Or to a heathen Scandinavian. I know some people who really can`t drink and go down for the count just by sniffing the cork, but whatever flask or canteen Reno had, it wasn`t a cornucopia of alcohol (I`d love to have one right now, I hate my job today). I knew some of his accusers had had troubles with Reno before, great to get the details on that. And if we flip this, how many said he wasn`t drunk or didn`t even think of it as an issue? If he was the drunken fool ofte portrayed as, there would not be any doubt about this. A couple of hundred men would not keep quiet, I reckon. Reno was probably really shaken up and nervous, I imagine some folk knew he had a little booze with him like the rest and made out of that him being som drunken out of control madman. I blame my PTSD every Christmas party, so I know these things. All the best, Geir
After reading this, I think I need a drink.
Blessings, Teetotaller* Ray
When briefly on staff in an Infantry battalion in Nam, the officers all got drunk every night (doing PLFs off the bar and out the back door, etc.). I figured that the battalion should have at least one sober officer each night and, since I couldn't convince anyone else, it had to be moi. I stopped drinking and never looked back (except wine with meals on occasion),
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ray
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Once a FNG, always a FNG. It's a glorious status because ignorance is bliss.
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Post by ray on Nov 16, 2018 23:41:57 GMT -6
The subject, of course, will never go away, so it is like preaching God to a coven, but there it is. Best wishes, Fred. Or to a heathen Scandinavian. I know some people who really can`t drink and go down for the count just by sniffing the cork, but whatever flask or canteen Reno had, it wasn`t a cornucopia of alcohol (I`d love to have one right now, I hate my job today). I knew some of his accusers had had troubles with Reno before, great to get the details on that. And if we flip this, how many said he wasn`t drunk or didn`t even think of it as an issue? If he was the drunken fool ofte portrayed as, there would not be any doubt about this. A couple of hundred men would not keep quiet, I reckon. Reno was probably really shaken up and nervous, I imagine some folk knew he had a little booze with him like the rest and made out of that him being som drunken out of control madman. I blame my PTSD every Christmas party, so I know these things. All the best, Geir Ah, you've destroyed my illusions about my hardy Scandinavian forebears knocking back booze 25 hours per night in the frozen wastes. What can I believe in anymore?
Blessings,
Ray
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ray
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Once a FNG, always a FNG. It's a glorious status because ignorance is bliss.
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Post by ray on Nov 16, 2018 23:50:02 GMT -6
I don't think Reno could have held out until Terry arrived. Reno was surrounded and had already exhausted most of his ammunition in his short stay on the skirmish line and in the timber. If he stayed in the timber any longer than he did, most likely none of them would have ever left the timber. Remember, Terry didn't arrive on the scene until the 27th. Hi Colt,
I suspect that it's okay to say, "Reno could NOT have held out in the timber OR on the hill had Benteen AND the pack train not arrived promptly, because by all reports ammunition was nearly exhausted (or left behind or otherwise lost) in the frantic retreat." The Indians, on the other hand, were replenishing their stocks of weapons and ammunition a short ways away to the north.
In fact, it's a safe ASSUMPTION that Reno owed his force's survival to one GAC doing whatever he did to elicit the first shots from the north and drawing off the bulk of the Indians.
Blessings,
Ray
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Post by Yan Taylor on Nov 17, 2018 6:40:50 GMT -6
Hi Ray, some think that Custer tried to take the heat off Reno with his foray to ford B, but I don't think Custer saw Reno being forced off his skirmish line as he had left the bluffs and was further inland on his way towards MTC.
The best road to go down is reading the accounts from the three Crow scouts who apparently where on the bluffs close enough to shoot into the village and claimed to see Custer riding towards ford B and saw Reno being beaten and forced back. If it happened in that order then Custer wouldn't have know anything about what was going on in the valley, but I cannot remember the sequence off the top of my head.
Some also claim that Boston told his brother about Reno, but again he may have not caught up with the column until it had reached MTC. As it says in the Grey time line;
3:48: Custer Battalion enters Medicine Tail Coulee. Custer formulates battle plan. 3:50: Boston Custer links up with Custer Battalion and reports situation. 3:53: Reno Battalion begins retreat to the bluffs. Custer Battalion reaches Luce Ridge.
Ian.
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Post by Colt45 on Nov 17, 2018 9:07:57 GMT -6
Ray, I think Benteen stated at the RCOI that his scout orders were to proceed to the left from valley to valley until reaching the LBH or until new orders were received. I know he received messages from Custer early in the scout and I think one of those was where he was told to continue the scout to the LBH. AZ Ranger has ridden that route and can attest to its difficulty and the time it takes to cover that ground.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Nov 17, 2018 10:57:15 GMT -6
Riding should be influenced by a rider under the influence. In Arizona you can be arrested DUI while riding a horse. Riding from the timber to the bluffs while under attack would be the ultimate divided attention test for a horseman under the influence.
AZ Ranger
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Post by AZ Ranger on Nov 17, 2018 11:38:28 GMT -6
If Benteen had continued the scout all the way to the LBH river, Reno probably would not have moved from the hilltop. Once Custer was finished the Indians would have returned to the hilltop, where they most likely would have wiped Reno out. Then when they found Benteen off in the distance, it would have been another wipe out. So instead of having markers mostly in one location, there would be markers in 3 locations and no survivors out of 12 companies. Hey Colt,
Mr. Logic here. I am unaware that Custer ordered Benteen all the way over to the LBH River, which concept has so many red flags raising (like, have people suggesting this SEEN the terrain, even on a topographic map). When I computer modelled the movement to contact up Reno Creek, results had Benteen's patrol rejoining Reno Creek just ahead of (or, in one iteration, just behind) the pack train. To me it seems that Benteen couldn't possibly have covered that ground even at a sustained gallop for an hour, something AZ Ranger will tell me is impossible. So what were Custer's specific orders to Benteen. I seem to recall that they were known.
Blessings,
Ray
It is my opinion that Herendeen talked with Custer. He was with the 1874 Expedition and involved in fight in South Fork Reno Creek (SFRC) against 600 of the same Indians. He was also involved in the fight at the divide. I have visited both sites. SFRC was a known travel corridor , camp site location and has more water then Reno Creek. I went to the battle site in SFRC two years ago. Crazy Horse used SFRC to go to the Rosebud. My thought is the direction Benteen took placed him 5 miles upstream on SFRC. When nothing was observed he returned down Noname. I think Custer would be aware of the potential for camps in SFRC. That to me makes more sense then sending Benteen to the river. If Custer wanted to have Benteen cross the river he could have kept him with him and then had Benteen move up a drainage and then cross the river. I rode and carried a GPS unit that I used in my job on horseback patrol. I have thousands of miles of patrols and water catchment checks recorded. I originally was going to help Gordon Harper with GPS readings for his book. He passed away before it happened but he had planted the thought in my head. So in 2010 we rode area where Benteen would have ridden and used Darling's Benteen's Scout to the Left.
We found everything consistent with the description of the actual participants with Benteen. We rode through two defiles. One required jumping the horses off a stone bluff. Not hard but it required movement in single file. That slows troop overall troop movement speed. Possibly have to form up single file and then reform. So actual moving speed would be higher. The paper map line measurement is around 7 miles. The GPS reading of our ride was over 10 miles. The up and down of the terrain that participants described add distance. Also it impossible to ride in straight line over this terrain. So the jump off place had to be determined and then traversed single file. There is a second that requires single through a drainage and that route could be same or different but it most likely was similar since the drainage had water in it and the vegetation is thick. The first map here is Clair's straight line course for Benteen. The second is what we rode and includes riding to Gibson's observation point. Benteen did not ride up to it. It is very steep and requires switchbacking to ride off it back to Noname where Benteen was waiting. The second is the software profile of the ride. In years past Wild pointed out that it makes the peaks look like the Alps. The reason it does this that whole distance is the horizontal axis and height is on vertical axis. My software did not allow me change the X and Y axis. If we wanted to see actual relationship to on the ground then the horizontal axis would be 10 miles of paper. The important point to me is that it not a straight line going downhill from the separation point below the divide. It has many ups and downs and the valley hunting ad infinitum rings true when riding it. I know several others that have made this ride but not sure of any that took a GPS unit with them. In Noname Creek it 103 degrees and no wind. My horse Roman had sweat completely through a 1" thick wool pad. Our total ride was over 14 miles because we rode from Reno Creek road to the divide and visited the 1874 battle sight. Notice the last stretch is almost a line from higher elevation to lower elevation. That is difference between riding across many drainages as compared to riding down a drainage such as Noname. Custer'sroute down Reno Creek would look more like a straight line in my opinion. Regards AZ Ranger
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ray
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Once a FNG, always a FNG. It's a glorious status because ignorance is bliss.
Posts: 38
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Post by ray on Nov 17, 2018 13:13:23 GMT -6
Hi Ray, some think that Custer tried to take the heat off Reno with his foray to ford B, but I don't think Custer saw Reno being forced off his skirmish line as he had left the bluffs and was further inland on his way towards MTC. The best road to go down is reading the accounts from the three Crow scouts who apparently where on the bluffs close enough to shoot into the village and claimed to see Custer riding towards ford B and saw Reno being beaten and forced back. If it happened in that order then Custer wouldn't have know anything about what was going on in the valley, but I cannot remember the sequence off the top of my head. Some also claim that Boston told his brother about Reno, but again he may have not caught up with the column until it had reached MTC. As it says in the Grey time line; 3:48: Custer Battalion enters Medicine Tail Coulee. Custer formulates battle plan. 3:50: Boston Custer links up with Custer Battalion and reports situation. 3:53: Reno Battalion begins retreat to the bluffs. Custer Battalion reaches Luce Ridge. Ian. Hi Ian,
Good points all. I would only add that anyone who thinks that "Custer TRIED to take the heat off Reno with his foray to ford B" is making a huge assumption about Custer's state of mind. Even if Custer were aware of Reno's plight (which apparently there is no evidence of including from Custer's actions) it would at best have been peripheral to Custer's thoughts, plans and actions at the time.
Blessings,
Ray
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ray
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Once a FNG, always a FNG. It's a glorious status because ignorance is bliss.
Posts: 38
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Post by ray on Nov 17, 2018 13:18:33 GMT -6
Hey Colt,
Mr. Logic here. I am unaware that Custer ordered Benteen all the way over to the LBH River, which concept has so many red flags raising (like, have people suggesting this SEEN the terrain, even on a topographic map). When I computer modelled the movement to contact up Reno Creek, results had Benteen's patrol rejoining Reno Creek just ahead of (or, in one iteration, just behind) the pack train. To me it seems that Benteen couldn't possibly have covered that ground even at a sustained gallop for an hour, something AZ Ranger will tell me is impossible. So what were Custer's specific orders to Benteen. I seem to recall that they were known.
Blessings,
Ray
It is my opinion that Herendeen talked with Custer. He was with the 1874 Expedition and involved in fight in South Fork Reno Creek (SFRC) against 600 of the same Indians. He was also involved in the fight at the divide. I have visited both sites. SFRC was a known travel corridor , camp site location and has more water then Reno Creek. I went to the battle site in SFRC two years ago. Crazy Horse used SFRC to go to the Rosebud. My thought is the direction Benteen took placed him 5 miles upstream on SFRC. When nothing was observed he returned down Noname. I think Custer would be aware of the potential for camps in SFRC. That to me makes more sense then sending Benteen to the river. If Custer wanted to have Benteen cross the river he could have kept him with him and then had Benteen move up a drainage and then cross the river. I rode and carried a GPS unit that I used in my job on horseback patrol. I have thousands of miles of patrols and water catchment checks recorded. I originally was going to help Gordon Harper with GPS readings for his book. He passed away before it happened but he had planted the thought in my head. So in 2010 we rode area where Benteen would have ridden and used Darling's Benteen's Scout to the Left.
We found everything consistent with the description of the actual participants with Benteen. We rode through two defiles. One required jumping the horses off a stone bluff. Not hard but it required movement in single file. That slows troop overall troop movement speed. Possibly have to form up single file and then reform. So actual moving speed would be higher. The paper map line measurement is around 7 miles. The GPS reading of our ride was over 10 miles. The up and down of the terrain that participants described add distance. Also it impossible to ride in straight line over this terrain. So the jump off place had to be determined and then traversed single file. There is a second that requires single through a drainage and that route could be same or different but it most likely was similar since the drainage had water in it and the vegetation is thick. The first map here is Clair's straight line course for Benteen. The second is what we rode and includes riding to Gibson's observation point. Benteen did not ride up to it. It is very steep and requires switchbacking to ride off it back to Noname where Benteen was waiting. The second is the software profile of the ride. In years past Wild pointed out that it makes the peaks look like the Alps. The reason it does this that whole distance is the horizontal axis and height is on vertical axis. My software did not allow me change the X and Y axis. If we wanted to see actual relationship to on the ground then the horizontal axis would be 10 miles of paper. The important point to me is that it not a straight line going downhill from the separation point below the divide. It has many ups and downs and the valley hunting ad infinitum rings true when riding it. I know several others that have made this ride but not sure of any that took a GPS unit with them. In Noname Creek it 103 degrees and no wind. My horse Roman had sweat completely through a 1" thick wool pad. Our total ride was over 14 miles because we rode from Reno Creek road to the divide and visited the 1874 battle sight. Notice the last stretch is almost a line from higher elevation to lower elevation. That is difference between riding across many drainages as compared to riding down a drainage such as Noname. Custer'sroute down Reno Creek would look more like a straight line in my opinion. Regards AZ Ranger All I can say is "Wow!" What great information! Thank you.
In your opinion, what would the approximate distance be that Benteen's patrol travelled (including the brief detachment) and what time would have transpired from leaving until returning to Reno Creek?
Blessings,
Ray
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Post by AZ Ranger on Nov 17, 2018 17:58:28 GMT -6
All I can say is "Wow!" What great information! Thank you.
In your opinion, what would the approximate distance be that Benteen's patrol travelled (including the brief detachment) and what time would have transpired from leaving until returning to Reno Creek?
Blessings,
Ray
I think the distance depends on who in Benteen's battalion you are talking about. I think the recon group rode the furthest. The next would be Gibson who rode up to the divide between SFRC and Noname. I think timing is what Darling states. Benteen reaches Reno Creek behind Custer and ahead of the pack train. For a detail on timelines I rely on Fred's book The Strategy of Defeat.
I think 9-12 miles depending upon which part of the battalion would be ball park. All the distance changes is the rate of travel and I think the terrain played a big factor in reducing overall speed.
I you read Fred's book he increases speed of Custer down Reno Creek so Benteen could have moved faster and still come out behind Custer.
Regards
Steve
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Post by fred on Nov 18, 2018 6:40:05 GMT -6
In your opinion, what would the approximate distance be that Benteen's patrol travelled (including the brief detachment) and what time would have transpired from leaving until returning to Reno Creek? Benteen departed the divide halt at 12:10 PM. At 1:25, he began his turn down No-Name Creek. His scout was 4 1/8 miles from the divide separation point and he averaged 3.3 MPH. At 1:50 PM, Benteen's column reaches the confluence of No-Name Creek and Reno Creek. He traveled 2.9 miles down No-Name Creek for an average speed of 4.2 MPH for the entire scout, a total distance of 7.1 miles. The packs are seen about one mile up Reno Creek. A single rider—Boston Custer—is seen coming toward them. All of this is contained in the Strategy book along with all the necessary first-hand, participant support. Best wishes, Fred.
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