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Post by dan25 on Oct 9, 2015 17:06:15 GMT -6
Fred, Thanks again for the help. The book cover art was excellent it depicts a very intense and desperate scene. As for taking photographs and incorporate them into the cover art is a very talented professional. But now you went and did it, you caused me to ask another question. When you mention the color of hats, I always thought the white hats were a hollywood creation. Why and when did the white or beige hats come about, and were they an issued item to certain company's? As for the cartridge's jamming, it's good to know the old memory is still working. While it might not have been a major cause for the defeat, I can't help thinking about how many did jam and what must have went thru their minds when it did. Pure panic, use it as a club or throw it. Really curious about those hat's. Regards dan25 dan25,
A number of officers and at least one NCO, on Reno Hill had their own rifles equipped with cleaning rods and cleared a number of jammed carbines of the copper. Capt. French kept busy at the height of battle doing this.
Regards, Tom
Tom, Thanks for the info. I assume you mean the rods were inserted down the barrel to poke out the jammed cartridge. Which would be quicker than trying to pry it out with a knife, unless the few that had cleaning rods weren't busy with other rifles or dead. In any case what a way to have to fight a battle. Regards dan25
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Post by tubman13 on Oct 9, 2015 17:30:42 GMT -6
you got it!
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Post by benteen on Oct 9, 2015 17:46:15 GMT -6
I assume you mean the rods were inserted down the barrel to poke out the jammed cartridge. Which would be quicker than trying to pry it out with a knife, unless the few that had cleaning rods weren't busy with other rifles or dead. In any case what a way to have to fight a battle.
Regards dan25
Tom, Dan25, Your posts made me think of something I had not thought about. I know they talk about brass vs copper cartridges, but could there be another reason. What I am getting at is that I have never read anywhere about the stressing of care and maintenance of weapons. That only a few had cleaning rods, tells me they werent issued. It seems no cleaning equipment was issued. From what i understand, the carbine was carried on the saddle barrel down. You can only imagine the dirt and filth that would have gone into these weapons. The barrels could be clogged and the moving parts jammed. I would like the experts like Colt45 or Steve or anyone else familiar with firearms tell me if this is a possibility . Be Well Dan (The other Dan)
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Post by tubman13 on Oct 9, 2015 18:06:53 GMT -6
TOD(The other Dan), Carbine had no rod attached, I know of no cleaning kits carried. Very interesting you should ask that. Left FAL in May, few probably shot in transit, I wonder how many cleaned at or after depot. Trivia maybe, but a wonderment, non the less.
Regards, Tom
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Post by magpie on Oct 9, 2015 19:56:55 GMT -6
dan25,
A number of officers and at least one NCO, on Reno Hill had their own rifles equipped with cleaning rods and cleared a number of jammed carbines of the copper. Capt. French kept busy at the height of battle doing this.
Regards, Tom
I have never quite understood why French who was supposed to be one of the best shots would be regulated into that duty. It seems that is the job for the guy who can't hit the broad side of the barn. Beth In Graham (53) there is a letter from French to one of the LBH widows where he claims to have single handedly held back the onslaught by the Indians on Reno's retreat killing 1/2-1 dozen. My take on that letter is French is a liar and he's chasing skirt. He makes the boast just ask anyone as they all saw {this is a paraphrase from memory}. Is there any record of such that doesn't trace back to French himself? Somewhere someone from the Army said the carbines jammed from heating up after about 14 rapid fires. I think Benteen said he was clearing jams with a pocket knife. Didn't that trap door lift up and expose the side of the shell so it could be pried out. Sorry to be sometimes lazy but I certainly fired modern fire arms a lot without cleaning and aside from one shot gun load that jammed. Oh well what do I know. Never did the black powder.
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Post by tubman13 on Oct 10, 2015 4:48:57 GMT -6
Black powder is very corrosive, modern "smokeless powders" allow for some degree of minor fouling.
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Post by fred on Oct 10, 2015 6:26:03 GMT -6
What you don't hear emphasized enough is the rate of failure of Indian Henries. One researcher found as many as 7 misfires! I saw one with 4 misfires, and one of them was in a different gun. Pete, You are absolutely correct. I remember reading one account where a spent cartridge was determined to have been fired from a larger caliber weapon. By the way for those of you who do not know, "littlebigman" Pete is an innovative chemist, author, and college professor who has visited the battlefield and worked with archaeologists in determining the specifics of the various cartridges. Pay attention to what he says here: he is a real pro. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by dan25 on Oct 10, 2015 7:22:06 GMT -6
Black powder is very corrosive, modern "smokeless powders" allow for some degree of minor fouling. Black powder was not only very corrosive, but it creates a build up of powder. Flint lock rifles were the worst, after several firings the touch hole from the flash pan to the barrel would clog and you had to pick it out. Even the flash pan would build up and had to be brushed out. In all muzzle loaders even civil war ones after so many shots the build up made it hard to ram another load down the barrel until you brushed it out. At least these weapons came with ram rods that were threaded and allowed for a brush, patch or worm to be used. What seems very strange is the War Dept. knowing the effects of powder and the necessity for cleaning and maintenance of weapons didn't consider proper cleaning equipment, especially with the number of weapons issued to the entire military. Unless they expected the soldier to purchase their own. Regards dan25
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Post by AZ Ranger on Oct 10, 2015 7:43:01 GMT -6
Fred Bless your heart. Does it ever feel like your brain is going to explode? How you manage to carry all that info plus know where to find more in your notes amazes me. You really need to go to Montana and take a break and buy me a beer or two. So tell me, how is Georgetown's football team doing this season? Regards Dave Well Dave if you and Fred make it there next year you will see at part of the reason Fred can recall his information. When we sat around tables outside his hotel he had a huge loose leaf notebook filled with Fred stuff. I would love a copy of it. Regards Steve
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Post by AZ Ranger on Oct 10, 2015 8:14:18 GMT -6
Dan I wonder if the soldier's actions were more anxiety based and not alcohol. I do not believe the enlisted men were able to access alcoholic beverages as easily as officers. Panic/fear can cause people to respond in violent and senseless behavior and actions. Some soldiers were said to have handed their weapons to the Indians in attempts to surrender. I would be interested in the opinions of combat veterans as well as those law enforcement officers involved in officer shootings. The stress of combat has been commented on by many varied participants who have stated the value of proper combat training and firearms familiarization. All emergency drills are established to insure immediate reaction to the cause and proper procedures to be followed. Regards Dave If you attempt to shoot a carbine at long range with sights set at max elevation from the side it appear as if shooting into the air. I suspect the Indians were experienced at close quarter shooting at animal and did not want waste a single shot. I don't think skirmish lines were established with the intent to allow the Indians to close within 50 yards before shooting. I pick 50 yards since it is the maximum range for a police rifle instructor course. The reason has more to do with liability of each shot and the range of recognizable verbal commands. We expect 100% hits on target up to the 50 yard distance. Above that it more into precision rifle techniques and a understanding of ballistics. In the Marine Corps we shot out to 800 yards and qualified out to 500 yards. I don't think the troopers were issued enough ammunition to develop the motor skills needed to perform under stressful conditions. You can create stress simply by introducing a time limit. I attended a "How to assist a problem shooter AZPOST course in Tucson. The requirements included being an AZPOST firearm instructor. The first thing the did was put us on the seven yard and told us that they were going to make us problem shooters. The command was two shots from holster in one second with a turning target. My second shot cut a line across the target but they said it didn't count. I looked down the line and they created problem shooters out the majority of the class. Shooting well is not like learning to ride a bike. Once learned you can always do it type of learning. Not only do you have to learn the basics of marksmanship you must practice to maintain a high skill level. There is nothing that I read that indicates they had the ammunition to maintain high hit rates. One of things they did makes sense. I understand that they shot 60 rounds per trooper before leaving FAL. True or not it would be a good thing to do. In staging before going to Viet Nam we shot hundreds of rounds from different ranges and positions. I would love to hear from William in regards to how many rounds are fired by Special Force soldiers on an annual basis. Regards Steve
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Post by AZ Ranger on Oct 10, 2015 8:19:50 GMT -6
And yes... Richard Fox discusses the cartridge business in his book. The cartridges used at the LBH were copper cased, not brass, and it was reported in a number of cases (no pun there!) some troops had trouble extracting the spent case. Some people-- I think Godfrey may have even been among them-- claimed this was a major cause of the defeat, but Fox debunks that theory and I agree. The interesting thing about that painting on the book is the artist, Richard Luce-- Fred, What you don't hear emphasized enough is the rate of failure of Indian Henries. One researcher found as many as 7 misfires! I saw one with 4 misfires, and one of them was in a different gun. See attached pic. Pete So Pete I think case pictured represents two misfires. The firing pins were in pairs and directly across from each other. The third pair would have set of the primer if the case is empty. The investigator in me wonders if this case was old when an attempt was made to fire it. The lever action rifle of the Indians would not lend itself to extraction and then turning the unfired case so that the firing pins would strike in a difference location. It also seem something an Indian would do under stress. He would have to know the location the firing pins and insert in the chamber by or risk randomly hitting the same marks or adjacent to them. Something to think about. Regards AZ Ranger
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Post by AZ Ranger on Oct 10, 2015 8:50:47 GMT -6
Fred, Thanks again for the help. The book cover art was excellent it depicts a very intense and desperate scene. As for taking photographs and incorporate them into the cover art is a very talented professional. But now you went and did it, you caused me to ask another question. When you mention the color of hats, I always thought the white hats were a hollywood creation. Why and when did the white or beige hats come about, and were they an issued item to certain company's? As for the cartridge's jamming, it's good to know the old memory is still working. While it might not have been a major cause for the defeat, I can't help thinking about how many did jam and what must have went thru their minds when it did. Pure panic, use it as a club or throw it. Really curious about those hat's. Regards dan25 dan25,
A number of officers and at least one NCO, on Reno Hill had their own rifles equipped with cleaning rods and cleared a number of jammed carbines of the copper. Capt. French kept busy at the height of battle doing this.
Regards, Tom
On my recent trip to New England I visited the Springfield Armory in Massachusetts. Asked a question about carbines and they brought the expert from the back room. I knew of the modification to the carbine stock to contain a cleaning rod. What I learn was worth the visit. Right after the LBH battle the armory made two prototypes with cleaning rod in the front of the magazine. They are still there. I could not convince the expert to let me see them but he described them. One had been stolen and an attempt was made to sell them on EBay. It was recovered and the pair of the front mounted cleaning rod carbines are together again. Sounds like a country western song. Regards Steve
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shaw
Full Member
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Post by shaw on Oct 10, 2015 13:48:54 GMT -6
I think if I was with Custer I'd want to be drunk. Maybe not falling down drunk but drunk enough to take the edge off of things. I think the whole last part of the Custer battle would have gone easier if you had a buzz on. You're going to die...right? I'd rather be up on the slope of that hill fighting to the end rather than freaking out. Not that I blame anyone who did panic. It was a terrible situation. Exhausted, dehydrated soldiers...
There were enough reservation NA's who had some familiarity with whiskey fighting on the Indian side in that battle. It wouldn't have been a total surprise.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2015 14:08:19 GMT -6
By the way for those of you who do not know, "littlebigman" Pete is an innovative chemist, author, and college professor who has visited the battlefield and worked with archaeologists in determining the specifics of the various cartridges. Pay attention to what he says here: he is a real pro. Wow Fred, you're way too kind. I don't know about being innovative, I'm not an author except for the occasional technical paper, and I hope I will be a "real pro" in this field after putting in the years of research you have. Many kind regards, Pete
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Oct 10, 2015 14:09:50 GMT -6
On my recent trip to New England I visited the Springfield Armory in Massachusetts. Steve, I'm very, very interested in this. Do you have a contact? Please PM me if you can tell me. Kind regards, Pete
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