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Post by dave on Oct 5, 2015 15:10:43 GMT -6
Dan I wonder if the soldier's actions were more anxiety based and not alcohol. I do not believe the enlisted men were able to access alcoholic beverages as easily as officers. Panic/fear can cause people to respond in violent and senseless behavior and actions. Some soldiers were said to have handed their weapons to the Indians in attempts to surrender.
I would be interested in the opinions of combat veterans as well as those law enforcement officers involved in officer shootings. The stress of combat has been commented on by many varied participants who have stated the value of proper combat training and firearms familiarization. All emergency drills are established to insure immediate reaction to the cause and proper procedures to be followed. Regards Dave
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Post by dan25 on Oct 5, 2015 16:51:15 GMT -6
Dave, I agree with you and also with what David said.
When I read the first few accounts I immediately thought those poor soldiers were running in panic and completely terrified. But when I read the couple of Indians that mentioned when they went to scalp some dead soldiers and they smelt of whiskey, then the Indians that was looting and claim whiskey was in the soldiers canteens, that's when I decided to post the question.
regards dan25
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Post by tubman13 on Oct 6, 2015 4:05:59 GMT -6
Fred, I never heard of it before and didn't know if it had any truth to it. I thought if any one would know you would. regards dan25 Dan, The 45min. viewing of Reno would skew all timelines, not just Fred's. Also we must remember how long the Reno fight lasted and that would really mitigate against any further move north by GAC. Changes message and note arrival times. Custer's only real down time was in the cemetery area, as per NA accounts.
Regards, Tm
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Post by Colt45 on Oct 6, 2015 8:11:01 GMT -6
Dan I wonder if the soldier's actions were more anxiety based and not alcohol. I do not believe the enlisted men were able to access alcoholic beverages as easily as officers. Panic/fear can cause people to respond in violent and senseless behavior and actions. Some soldiers were said to have handed their weapons to the Indians in attempts to surrender. I would be interested in the opinions of combat veterans as well as those law enforcement officers involved in officer shootings. The stress of combat has been commented on by many varied participants who have stated the value of proper combat training and firearms familiarization. All emergency drills are established to insure immediate reaction to the cause and proper procedures to be followed. Regards Dave As a former military and law enforcement officer, I can tell you the training takes over when anxiety and adrenaline kick in. That's why continual training is so important, it builds the proper reactions that will occur without having to spend a lot of conscious brain cycles on what to do in an emergency. You fight the way you train. The 7th was not very well trained, and it showed in crunch time. If many or some of the men were intoxicated during the battle, that speaks volumes to the training level of the unit. A properly trained unit would never allow for alcohol to be carried or consumed during a combat operation, and each man would realize the potential lethality of being under the influence at a time when he needs all his wits and best judgement. Judgement is the first thing that goes away when a person is intoxicated. That's why drunks do stupid things they normally would never do when sober.
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Post by Beth on Oct 6, 2015 15:27:01 GMT -6
Dan I wonder if the soldier's actions were more anxiety based and not alcohol. I do not believe the enlisted men were able to access alcoholic beverages as easily as officers. Panic/fear can cause people to respond in violent and senseless behavior and actions. Some soldiers were said to have handed their weapons to the Indians in attempts to surrender. I would be interested in the opinions of combat veterans as well as those law enforcement officers involved in officer shootings. The stress of combat has been commented on by many varied participants who have stated the value of proper combat training and firearms familiarization. All emergency drills are established to insure immediate reaction to the cause and proper procedures to be followed. Regards Dave As a former military and law enforcement officer, I can tell you the training takes over when anxiety and adrenaline kick in. That's why continual training is so important, it builds the proper reactions that will occur without having to spend a lot of conscious brain cycles on what to do in an emergency. You fight the way you train. The 7th was not very well trained, and it showed in crunch time. If many or some of the men were intoxicated during the battle, that speaks volumes to the training level of the unit. A properly trained unit would never allow for alcohol to be carried or consumed during a combat operation, and each man would realize the potential lethality of being under the influence at a time when he needs all his wits and best judgement. Judgement is the first thing that goes away when a person is intoxicated. That's why drunks do stupid things they normally would never do when sober. I have no disagreement with anything you say but will point out that you have to remember that the view towards alcohol during a battle might be significantly different between then and now. I personally wonder if there was a lot of alcohol in those canteens if meant the canteen owners were becoming dehydrated in a situation when they needed to keep up their hydration.
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Post by dan25 on Oct 6, 2015 16:20:56 GMT -6
Beth, you mention a good point. The difference between "Then" and "Now".
I think we all know there was not enough training, but how much discipline was there when in the field. A lot of those soldiers were foreigners use to drinking a lot, especially back then.
I only posted the mention of drinking because several Indians mentioned it and I was curious if anyone else had heard of it.
dan25
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Post by dan25 on Oct 8, 2015 7:43:56 GMT -6
Fred, Just two things'
1. Your book is fantastic. I can't imagine the time and effort it took to produce it. Now I understand why you made so many trips to LBH. Your endeavor's are appreciated and respected. When I ordered your book I also ordered "Archaeology, History, and Custer's Last Battle" by "Richard Allan Fox", then I read in your book that you recommend it, I guess I did something good without realizing it.
2. I noticed something on both the front and rear cover of your book that struck a memory. One of the soldiers appears to be prying out a cartridge from the chamber of his rifle. When I seen that I recalled a story I read a long, long time ago. At some period the military experimented with a different type material other than brass to cut the cost of cartridges. I think it was copper but I just can't remember. It worked well untill the rifle was fired continuously for a period of time. The heat build up caused the new type cartridge to expand so bad it would not eject, and then had to be pryed out. Have you ever heard of this?
regards dan25
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Post by fred on Oct 8, 2015 9:01:29 GMT -6
The heat build up caused the new type cartridge to expand so bad it would not eject, and then had to be pryed out. Have you ever heard of this? Dan, First of all, thank you for your very kind comments about Strategy. Your praise is more than I deserve... my sincerest thanks. And yes... Richard Fox discusses the cartridge business in his book. The cartridges used at the LBH were copper cased, not brass, and it was reported in a number of cases (no pun there!) some troops had trouble extracting the spent case. Some people-- I think Godfrey may have even been among them-- claimed this was a major cause of the defeat, but Fox debunks that theory and I agree. The interesting thing about that painting on the book is the artist, Richard Luce-- incorporated a number of things in it. His depiction differs somewhat from mine because in the descriptive accompanying the print (which I have) he claims more men of C Company were on LSH, thereby accounting for the white or beige hats. This is probably a bit overdone. The extraction business was another and something I thought was a very nice touch. It is also rumored-- and I never discussed this with Luce when I spoke to him-- he used the pictures of several friends with some of those troops depicted in the painting. Sharon, the sergeant major, for one. No known picture of Sharrow exists, so that is a bit of artistic license. Kinda cool, when you think about it. Again, thanks for your kind words. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 8, 2015 10:42:38 GMT -6
And yes... Richard Fox discusses the cartridge business in his book. The cartridges used at the LBH were copper cased, not brass, and it was reported in a number of cases (no pun there!) some troops had trouble extracting the spent case. Some people-- I think Godfrey may have even been among them-- claimed this was a major cause of the defeat, but Fox debunks that theory and I agree. The interesting thing about that painting on the book is the artist, Richard Luce-- Fred, What you don't hear emphasized enough is the rate of failure of Indian Henries. One researcher found as many as 7 misfires! I saw one with 4 misfires, and one of them was in a different gun. See attached pic. Pete Attachments:
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Post by dan25 on Oct 8, 2015 17:09:36 GMT -6
Fred, Thanks again for the help. The book cover art was excellent it depicts a very intense and desperate scene. As for taking photographs and incorporate them into the cover art is a very talented professional.
But now you went and did it, you caused me to ask another question. When you mention the color of hats, I always thought the white hats were a hollywood creation. Why and when did the white or beige hats come about, and were they an issued item to certain company's?
As for the cartridge's jamming, it's good to know the old memory is still working. While it might not have been a major cause for the defeat, I can't help thinking about how many did jam and what must have went thru their minds when it did. Pure panic, use it as a club or throw it.
Really curious about those hat's.
Regards dan25
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Post by dan25 on Oct 8, 2015 17:14:45 GMT -6
Littlebigman It's good to hear from another new person.
I know very little about Henry's, I don't recall ever hearing or reading anything bad about them. Appreciate the info. I can't tell from the image, where they rim fire cartridge's? Also have you ever read or heard anything bad about Spencer's?
Regards dan25
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2015 9:27:22 GMT -6
Littlebigman It's good to hear from another new person. I know very little about Henry's, I don't recall ever hearing or reading anything bad about them. Appreciate the info. I can't tell from the image, where they rim fire cartridge's? Also have you ever read or heard anything bad about Spencer's? Regards dan25 Hi Dan25 Newbie talk here! I've been around for awhile but usually lurk before I leap. Yes, the Henries are rimfire with double pin marks. Part of the misfire rate must be due to the lack of time to clean the barrel after 5-10 shots or so, something I'm not sure has been considered in detail. Just so you know, I'm no firearms expert, just someone who's been learning a lot from the experts. I don't have any info about the Spencers, unfortunately. Best wishes, LBM
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Post by tubman13 on Oct 9, 2015 14:07:14 GMT -6
Fred, Thanks again for the help. The book cover art was excellent it depicts a very intense and desperate scene. As for taking photographs and incorporate them into the cover art is a very talented professional. But now you went and did it, you caused me to ask another question. When you mention the color of hats, I always thought the white hats were a hollywood creation. Why and when did the white or beige hats come about, and were they an issued item to certain company's? As for the cartridge's jamming, it's good to know the old memory is still working. While it might not have been a major cause for the defeat, I can't help thinking about how many did jam and what must have went thru their minds when it did. Pure panic, use it as a club or throw it. Really curious about those hat's. Regards dan25 dan25,
A number of officers and at least one NCO, on Reno Hill had their own rifles equipped with cleaning rods and cleared a number of jammed carbines of the copper. Capt. French kept busy at the height of battle doing this.
Regards, Tom
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Post by Beth on Oct 9, 2015 15:47:43 GMT -6
Fred, Thanks again for the help. The book cover art was excellent it depicts a very intense and desperate scene. As for taking photographs and incorporate them into the cover art is a very talented professional. But now you went and did it, you caused me to ask another question. When you mention the color of hats, I always thought the white hats were a hollywood creation. Why and when did the white or beige hats come about, and were they an issued item to certain company's? As for the cartridge's jamming, it's good to know the old memory is still working. While it might not have been a major cause for the defeat, I can't help thinking about how many did jam and what must have went thru their minds when it did. Pure panic, use it as a club or throw it. Really curious about those hat's. Regards dan25 dan25,
A number of officers and at least one NCO, on Reno Hill had their own rifles equipped with cleaning rods and cleared a number of jammed carbines of the copper. Capt. French kept busy at the height of battle doing this.
Regards, Tom
I have never quite understood why French who was supposed to be one of the best shots would be regulated into that duty. It seems that is the job for the guy who can't hit the broad side of the barn. Beth
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Post by tubman13 on Oct 9, 2015 16:56:29 GMT -6
More guns are better than one, he was a good manager.
Regards, Tom
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