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Post by mchlwilson on Sept 28, 2015 18:56:04 GMT -6
Has anyone else here found themselves wondering whether Custer's body was actually found where it was claimed to have been found?
It's certainly possible, but I have often had a nagging suspicion that some well-meaning officer [Terry] ordered it to be moved to the top of the hill from some other nearby location that was perceived to be a less that noble place for a commander.
And I don't mean hauled up from Ford B!
Instead, I mean just some other locale in the Custer Hill vicinity. The description of Custer being found on top of two other soldiers, almost sitting up has always sounded a bit too tidy to me.
It may even be that he was carried to the top for purposes of identification and burial and it was not intended that it be interpreted that he fell there. But then others arrived later, saw the body there and misinterpreted what they saw.
What do you think?
Michael
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Post by Beth on Sept 28, 2015 19:12:13 GMT -6
Would it really make a difference if Custer was found at the top of the hill or the bottom? We view the area as Last Stand Hill because that is what it is but if they had died elsewhere we might be talking about Last Stand Basin or Last Stand Meadow and would think it with the same emotions.
Also remember the NA stripped away clothes so we probably don't know exactly on what spot Custer died on, or at the time of death he landed on the top of number of bodies (as in the last survivor) or on the bottom (as in an early casualty). The best we can tell is he died probably within a few feet of where he was found.
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Post by mchlwilson on Sept 28, 2015 19:45:49 GMT -6
Would it really make a difference if Custer was found at the top of the hill or the bottom? We view the area as Last Stand Hill because that is what it is but if they had died elsewhere we might be talking about Last Stand Basin or Last Stand Meadow and would think it with the same emotions. Also remember the NA stripped away clothes so we probably don't know exactly on what spot Custer died on, or at the time of death he landed on the top of number of bodies (as in the last survivor) or on the bottom (as in an early casualty). The best we can tell is he died probably within a few feet of where he was found. I'm just wondering if someone tried to skew the narrative by placing him in a more "heroic" location. |
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Post by Beth on Sept 28, 2015 21:24:08 GMT -6
1. Why? They had no idea he would need a heroic narrative. There are no photograph of the scene--wouldn't it be easier to just say something was a certain way than actually change it and then bury the bodies?
2.I think if any stories about the aftermath of the battlefield were changed it was because it was thought of as being a kindness to their families and nothing else. Sort of, "It was horrible, bodies were terribly abused, but not your (son, husband, brother) madame. Those wild heathens didn't touch him."
3. They probably wanted to get those bodies buried as soon as possible. Remember it had been hot for days.
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Post by magpie on Sept 30, 2015 11:48:49 GMT -6
It would be more heroic if he was taken out early, then he's not to blame.
There's an Indian story of him being carried up to be left near his brothers by an Indian he had befriended in the past.
He was sitting with his back to his dead horse. I have read that a place or two and I have a unpublished letter from a mail carrier that he saw him in that position as well.
Now if your going to use an awl to penetrate both ear drums that's a good way to position the corpse for the "Surgery".
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Post by fred on Sept 30, 2015 13:20:11 GMT -6
There's an Indian story of him being carried up to be left near his brothers by an Indian he had befriended in the past.... Now if your going to use an awl to penetrate both ear drums that's a good way to position the corpse for the "Surgery". Magpie, Belay these fairy tales, for that's all they are. There was so much dust and smoke, so much confusion: screaming, the panicked shrill of dying horses, gunfire.... Think about it. Take a rest, a break... lie back, close your eyes and think of the mayhem that must have gone on. The only one of these "personalized" stories I believe was when one of the warriors, years later-- I can dig up the quote if you want-- told of how crazy things were; that there was so much dust and smoke the warriors couldn't even see and some even killed one another, killed their friends by mistake. This is one of the things that kill me about this entire event, the Reno fighting as well. We cannot even begin to understand the mayhem involved in this thing. Even modern warfare differs because of the absence of horses. Think of each Indian riding down on you on a miniature tank. Some of these critics look upon this whole thing like it was a board game. Remember: "Bullets quickly write new tactics." There is a lot of wisdom... and fear,,, in that comment. Best wishes, Fred. |
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Post by magpie on Sept 30, 2015 14:20:19 GMT -6
I agree. My mouth was always full of dust after we worked a few thousand sheep, buffalo or a few hundred cows through the chutes but we could see but we weren't being shot at. I think the Custer body repositioning was well after the battle. It's almost like a Perry Mason or similar Mystery as to how many went past his body before the "police" arrived. I have the discharge papers and a letter of a Sergeant on his second tour of duty in Montana from the 20th or 22cnd infantry Company D ( I think they had the Gattling guns with Terry and one officer I think with Custer's regiment. Anyway this old German with an Indian Scout was carrying mail to Custer and saw him sitting with his back to his horse but of course after the squaws etc had stripped him etc. This guy indicates he thought Custer shot himself. Somewhere I hope to document his mail carrier role someday.
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Post by benteen on Sept 30, 2015 14:43:00 GMT -6
Magpie,
There are some very knowledgeable people about this battle and the military in general, who have expressed a desire to help answer your questions. I agree with them that people like yourself asking questions is what makes this forum interesting and fun. But may I make a minor suggestion. Stick with one question until you have satisfied yourself as to the answer. It would appear that you are all over the map and it would be difficult to answer you. May I take this time to welcome you to the forum as your passion and enthusiasm are a breath of fresh air.
Be Well
Dan
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Post by fred on Sept 30, 2015 16:46:26 GMT -6
I have the discharge papers and a letter of a Sergeant on his second tour of duty in Montana from the 20th or 22cnd infantry Company D ( I think they had the Gattling guns with Terry and one officer I think with Custer's regiment. Anyway this old German with an Indian Scout was carrying mail to Custer and saw him sitting with his back to his horse but of course after the squaws etc had stripped him etc. This guy indicates he thought Custer shot himself. Somewhere I hope to document his mail carrier role someday. The officer was 2LT John Crittenden, G Company, 20th Infantry. Crittenden was assigned to Jimmi Calhoun's L Company and died with Calhoun on Calhoun Hill. Crittenden had a glass eye, having lost it while hunting on October 25, 1875. He exploded a cartridge with a knife and a piece of it hit him in the eye. The Indians drove an arrow through the glass eye. The sergeant you are talking about would have to be one of the following: SGT Edward Alexander of Company I; SGT Lafayette Davis of Company C; or SGT Hugh Hynds of B Company, 20th Infantry (not the 22nd). The only D Company, 20th Infantry, personnel on the campaign were privates Edward Lowell and George Rivers. Best wishes, Fred. |
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Post by magpie on Oct 1, 2015 7:48:42 GMT -6
Thanks when I get a chance I'll dig up his enlistment papers. The first has a discharge at Ellis Montana in 186?. So if you were choosing logically you'd probably send him out. As to when he became a Sergeant? His last name was Lange. His final discharge was in Texas by Huster who signed like Custer. The Gatling guns with Terry and or Bradly were a detachment of the 20th? So a fair number of 20th men for one Sergeant Lange to slip in who lists D in several spots. He was also stationed in Florida and I got a tin type photo of a few soldiers next to a small tent from his stuff. I would say that all these things are moving targets as reassignments, promotions and demotions. Thank you very much for checking your lists as it sure saved me a huge amount of time. I still have to confirm 20 verses 22 infantry but like you I'm kind of in a move and one never wants to tear into a bunch of old paper looking.
All of Langes discharges were honorable. I like William O. Taylor's book a lot but have often wondered why that section of his discharge paper is torn off and missing.
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Post by tubman13 on Oct 6, 2015 10:30:19 GMT -6
It would be more heroic if he was taken out early, then he's not to blame. There's an Indian story of him being carried up to be left near his brothers by an Indian he had befriended in the past. He was sitting with his back to his dead horse. I have read that a place or two and I have a unpublished letter from a mail carrier that he saw him in that position as well. Now if your going to use an awl to penetrate both ear drums that's a good way to position the corpse for the "Surgery". Magpie, How could he have been sitting with his back to his horse, when his horse was taken to Canada by one of Inkpaduta's sons.
Regards, Tom
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shaw
Full Member
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Post by shaw on Oct 6, 2015 14:07:51 GMT -6
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Post by tubman13 on Oct 6, 2015 17:34:20 GMT -6
Nice work Shaw, great image. Thanks.
Regards,
Tom
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Post by locksley on Feb 14, 2016 21:20:47 GMT -6
I have the discharge papers and a letter of a Sergeant on his second tour of duty in Montana from the 20th or 22cnd infantry Company D ( I think they had the Gattling guns with Terry and one officer I think with Custer's regiment. Anyway this old German with an Indian Scout was carrying mail to Custer and saw him sitting with his back to his horse but of course after the squaws etc had stripped him etc. This guy indicates he thought Custer shot himself. Somewhere I hope to document his mail carrier role someday. The officer was 2LT John Crittenden, G Company, 20th Infantry. Crittenden was assigned to Jimmi Calhoun's L Company and died with Calhoun on Calhoun Hill. Crittenden had a glass eye, having lost it while hunting on October 25, 1875. He exploded a cartridge with a knife and a piece of it hit him in the eye. The Indians drove an arrow through the glass eye. The sergeant you are talking about would have to be one of the following: SGT Edward Alexander of Company I; SGT Lafayette Davis of Company C; or SGT Hugh Hynds of B Company, 20th Infantry (not the 22nd). The only D Company, 20th Infantry, personnel on the campaign were privates Edward Lowell and George Rivers. Best wishes, Fred. I found this article on the officer and it must be him. John Jordan Crittenden III (June 5, 1854 – June 25, 1876) He was a son of American Civil War general Thomas Leonidas Crittenden and his wife, Catherine Todd. He was a grandson and namesake of former Kentucky U.S. Senator John J. Crittenden and the great-grandson of Virginia politician John Crittenden, Sr. Young Crittenden received an appointment to the United States Military Academy in 1873, but failed to graduate, leaving school in 1875. He petitioned President Ulysses S. Grant for a commission and in the autumn of that year was assigned as a second lieutenant in the 20th U.S. Infantry. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Jordan_Crittenden_III |
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shaw
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Post by shaw on Feb 15, 2016 0:03:10 GMT -6
By the 27th the bodies would have bloated up and smelled to high heaven. What remained of the 7th and Terry's column didn't really have the tools or time to adequately bury the dead. The bodies would be decomposing. Custer's too regardless of what Libby was told. It would have been ugly. When the detail came to exhume and rebury Tom and George's bodies in 1877 some historians are not even sure that they got the right bodies. Probably yeah, but not sure.
Does it matter at this point? Custer is either buried at West Point or his bones are still on that final knoll. Or maybe his bones lie in both places.
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