JoeG
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Posts: 32
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Post by JoeG on Sept 16, 2015 14:05:27 GMT -6
Just read some older posts about the possibility of Cpl.Foley being a messenger on the way to Weir point, does that have any credence today?, would the Guidon have been used to attract attention to Captain Weir and demonstrate that Cpl.Foley wasn't a hostile as well as it being a source of pride in his regiment?.
Considering he got to Medicine Tail Coulee, he could have been seen I assume, despite the dust and smoke, can anyone estimate the time he left the battle, after the collapse at last stand hill or while Custer was still alive?.
JoeG.
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Post by benteen on Sept 16, 2015 15:10:50 GMT -6
Just read some older posts about the possibility of Cpl.Foley being a messenger on the way to Weir point, does that have any credence today?, would the Guidon have been used to attract attention to Captain Weir and demonstrate that Cpl.Foley wasn't a hostile as well as it being a source of pride in his regiment?.
Considering he got to Medicine Tail Coulee, he could have been seen I assume, despite the dust and smoke, can anyone estimate the time he left the battle, after the collapse at last stand hill or while Custer was still alive?.
JoeG. Joe, Good question, and of course anything is possible. But remember Cpl Foley was in C company, part of Capt Keoghs battalion. The way I think of it, what message could Capt Keogh have been sending and to who. Be Well Dan
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JoeG
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Post by JoeG on Sept 16, 2015 15:45:46 GMT -6
Dan,
Thanks for replying, it appears to be based on an assumption that he escaped the Keogh situation and made it to last stand hill, I take your point about what was his message, if they could see Captain Weir and vice versa the situation hardly needed a messenger. It was such a tragic end for Cpl.Foley, I may be looking for meaning and purpose (other than to escape the horror) where there isn't any.
JoeG
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Post by fred on Sept 16, 2015 15:50:22 GMT -6
A couple Indian accounts claim four horsemen broke away trying to escape. The accounts are unclear if it was a total of four-- not necessarily from the same group or at the same time--or if they all broke away together. My feelings are that they were all separate attempts at a getaway. Obviously Foley from C and Butler from L... but trying to get away, not carrying messages or anything of the sort. The guidon was sheer happenstance, nothing more, maybe Foley recovering it from the dead guidon bearer, who knows. A third getaway rider could have been Bailey from I Company. His marker is 174 and is right up against the park boundary fence on the east side. The last is really problematic, but I think it could have been Nathan Short of C Company toward the end of that company's abortive charge. I believe the remains they found at Marker 128 near Greasy Grass Ridge were Short's, probably the farthest of the markers just out of Calhoun Coulee. The pathology fits Short better than any other C Company trooper.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by edavids on Sept 16, 2015 16:09:40 GMT -6
Just read some older posts about the possibility of Cpl.Foley being a messenger on the way to Weir point, does that have any credence today?, would the Guidon have been used to attract attention to Captain Weir and demonstrate that Cpl.Foley wasn't a hostile as well as it being a source of pride in his regiment?.
Considering he got to Medicine Tail Coulee, he could have been seen I assume, despite the dust and smoke, can anyone estimate the time he left the battle, after the collapse at last stand hill or while Custer was still alive?.
JoeG. Could the message have stated: Reno & Benteen Come on, Big Village, Get Here Now! Bring AMMO Packs! WW Cooke (or M. Keogh) PS - Dammit AMMO Pacs Just teasin', great question, welcome from a fellow newbie. Best, David
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Post by montrose on Sept 16, 2015 17:26:27 GMT -6
1. Situation. Large village. Reno attacking with 3 companies in the valley. I am moving up right bank to attack with 5 companies.
2. Mission. Escort pack train to my location. BPT (Be Prepared To) to attack with me on arrival.
How long does it take to write that?
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Post by edavids on Sept 16, 2015 18:26:13 GMT -6
1. Situation. Large village. Reno attacking with 3 companies in the valley. I am moving up right bank to attack with 5 companies. 2. Mission. Escort pack train to my location. BPT (Be Prepared To) to attack with me on arrival. How long does it take to write that? Preaching to the choir. WW Cooke's mindset must have been off when he wrote the note . I promise not to go there again.BTW - I haven't thanked you for calling out us lurkers and getting us involved in these discussions. Be careful what you ask for but it is a pleasure being part of this board and your posts are all duly noted, respected and generally agreed upon by yours truly. Best, David
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JoeG
New Member
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Post by JoeG on Sept 18, 2015 15:49:20 GMT -6
Thanks guys, I'll park my (naive?)Foley questions for now, other than is it possible he did make it to last stand hill?.
JoeG
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Post by dan25 on Sept 19, 2015 12:16:58 GMT -6
Found this info on line regarding Cpl. John Foley.
"I saw one soldier ride across a hollow and try to get away. I was the third Indian to give chase. The soldier rode like the wind and appeared to be getting away from us, when he killed himself." - Turtle Rib, Minnikojou Lakota
"One soldier on a sorrel horse tried to get around the Indians. He was on a sorrel horse with white legs. The Indians took after him, and shot at him, but could not catch him. They saw some smoke and the report of a gun, and saw him fall off his horse. The Indians went over and he had shot himself. Someone of the Hunkpapa band got the horse and tied him to a stake. Everyone went to look at it." - Red Feather, Oglala Lakota
"Within an hour they [Custer's Battalion] was completely surrounded, and as they were without time to entrench or otherwise fortify their positions, they were soon all lying dead upon the field where the granite monument now stands. Not exactly all, for a few who retained their horses broke away down the ridge to the southeast, with the intention, presumably, of forcing their way back to Reno. Before they had gone on-half mile, not a man was left alive. These latter bodies having been found between Custer's position and Reno's, it had been supposed they were the first killed. Instead, it was shown that they were the last to fall." - Gall, Hunkpapa Lakota
"Riding with a squad of soldiers [June 1877], War Club, Oglala U.S. Indian Scout told how five soldiers - 'good fighters' - had broken from the hill where Custer fell, and had fled in the direction of Reno's command; how they had killed two here, a little further on two more, and how the fifth, mounted on a swift-footed, strong bay horse had outdistanced his pursuers, until they concluded to let him escape 'to tell the tale,' and how, after they had turned back, hearing a shot they looked to see the lone rider withdraw a pistol from his own head, and reel from the saddle, dead - the terrible sights through which he had passed had turned even this soldier's brain." - Unidentified Correspondent, Chicago Tribune, August 13, 1877
"I saw no man get away, but have heard four different eyewitnesses tell of one soldier who rode through the Indians on a very swift horse which they could not catch. They told that after chasing him for about a mile or two the soldier drew his pistol and killed himself. This we could not understand because the man's horse was swifter than ours and was continually getting farther away from the pursuers." - Foolish Elk, Oglala Lakota
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Post by shan on Sept 20, 2015 7:25:23 GMT -6
dan25
given the information you supplied; by the way, I have to confess I don't think I've come across that account by War Club before, there does seem to be a reasonable amount of evidence that various warriors witnessed a number of mounted men trying to make a break for it during the final stages of the battle. And who among us can blame them? I know that if I for one; had I still had a mount at that stage of the fight, and had I been aware of how things were panning out, I'd have definitely done exactly the same.
I think it's worth remembering here, that many many more Indians will have witnessed these, and other controversial moments throughout the battle, but given that they either choose not to, or, more likely, were never asked to relate their stories, it now seems certain that we will never be able to confirm these stories in any detail.
The fact that the numbers of escapees vary between that lone horseman; who a number of people mention, and the five men War Club mentions, doesn't mean that we ought to discount these tales, no, it merely indicates that the witnesses were scattered across the field when they saw these events.
John Stands in Timber credits at least one of those kills to the supposedly notorious Low Dog, who, having realised that he was never going to catch the lone trooper he'd been pursuing for some time, promptly dismounted, knelt down, and shot the man off his horse. From JSIT's description, it seems likely that this happened somewhere between Deep coulee, and upper Medicine Tail.
Fred, I accept your breakdown of who the four men may have been. Your explanation seems reasonable, and after all, your the man who has done all the work.
Montrose, it's always the simplest explanations that come up trumps. Unfortunately, my artistic temperament tends to ignore logic and go off looking for the wilder ends of an explanation. Yes of course, given that the general area had been an old watering hole for a number of groups throughout the years, there must have been the odd death over the years, hence the bones up on Luce and Nye.
But, bear with me, there may be another explanation. I read somewhere; I think it was in the Amos Bad Heart Bull book, that one of two years before the Custer battle, there had been a big running battle between the Sioux and the Crow, a fight that had flowed back and forth over this whole area as first one side, and then the other gained the advantage. The numbers involved were said to be unusually large; I seem to remember talk of thousands, which is, I imagine, a highly inflated figure. Nevertheless, the deeds that were done; the bravery runs, the coups gained on both sides, plus the numbers killed and wounded, meant that it was not only the subject of plenty of fire side yarns during the years that followed, but it was felt worthy enough to give rise to a number of images of the event.
All of which is a rather long winded way of suggesting that some of those bones may have even harkened back to that particular event.
David, {Shan}
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Post by magpie on Oct 5, 2015 7:12:53 GMT -6
Found this info on line regarding Cpl. John Foley. "I saw one soldier ride across a hollow and try to get away. I was the third Indian to give chase. The soldier rode like the wind and appeared to be getting away from us, when he killed himself." - Turtle Rib, Minnikojou Lakota "One soldier on a sorrel horse tried to get around the Indians. He was on a sorrel horse with white legs. The Indians took after him, and shot at him, but could not catch him. They saw some smoke and the report of a gun, and saw him fall off his horse. The Indians went over and he had shot himself. Someone of the Hunkpapa band got the horse and tied him to a stake. Everyone went to look at it." - Red Feather, Oglala Lakota "Within an hour they [Custer's Battalion] was completely surrounded, and as they were without time to entrench or otherwise fortify their positions, they were soon all lying dead upon the field where the granite monument now stands. Not exactly all, for a few who retained their horses broke away down the ridge to the southeast, with the intention, presumably, of forcing their way back to Reno. Before they had gone on-half mile, not a man was left alive. These latter bodies having been found between Custer's position and Reno's, it had been supposed they were the first killed. Instead, it was shown that they were the last to fall." - Gall, Hunkpapa Lakota "Riding with a squad of soldiers [June 1877], War Club, Oglala U.S. Indian Scout told how five soldiers - 'good fighters' - had broken from the hill where Custer fell, and had fled in the direction of Reno's command; how they had killed two here, a little further on two more, and how the fifth, mounted on a swift-footed, strong bay horse had outdistanced his pursuers, until they concluded to let him escape 'to tell the tale,' and how, after they had turned back, hearing a shot they looked to see the lone rider withdraw a pistol from his own head, and reel from the saddle, dead - the terrible sights through which he had passed had turned even this soldier's brain." - Unidentified Correspondent, Chicago Tribune, August 13, 1877 "I saw no man get away, but have heard four different eyewitnesses tell of one soldier who rode through the Indians on a very swift horse which they could not catch. They told that after chasing him for about a mile or two the soldier drew his pistol and killed himself. This we could not understand because the man's horse was swifter than ours and was continually getting farther away from the pursuers." - Foolish Elk, Oglala Lakota Hi: nice collection and thank you for the scholarly hard work. There is one more account as I have read it in the last few weeks but I'm going to be lazy and not try to locate it, I apologize but here is what was said: We decided to let the one escape to tell the others (Reno's men) what happened but an Indian returning from a deer hunt shot him. I would add that if you tried to hold your colt ready in the saddle and moving your likely to hold it to the side of your head barrel up.
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Post by smawson44 on Oct 7, 2015 5:56:18 GMT -6
This has issue has been discussed about before at the below location. lbha.proboards.com/thread/1111/custers-last-messengerI am curious if anyone knows where Doerner found the Flanigan source. Flanigan and the Indian sources seem to me to be slightly contradictory. If Foley was a messenger seen from Weir Point(Flanigan), Then I don't suppose he would be riding for help because the Indian sources seem to point to him as a "last survivor." What I am trying to say is that he probably wasn't a messenger. The Indian sources seem to agree that he was one of the last killed. The issues that I see here to be discussed are: 1.) Was it Foley who was the rider seen by the NA? 2.) Was a rider seen from Weir Point? 3.) Was the man seen escaping from the Indians a Messenger or "Last Survivor?"
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Post by tubman13 on Oct 9, 2015 14:13:53 GMT -6
smawson44,
Good questions all, but, I think if it was Foley, he was one of the breakouts that the NA's allude to. Welcome to the board. I have heard of no confirmed sightings of riders from Weir.
Regards, Tom
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