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Post by dave on Sept 7, 2015 19:12:29 GMT -6
Obviously you two have trouble keeping a job. I worked for the University of Mississippi 27 years then retired. Putted around with odd jobs for 12 years after. All this while living in the same town I moved to in 1960 as a Navy brat. Married a local woman, been happily married since 1972, with 2 children and 3 grandchildren. Weather story: 1996 ice storm 6" no power 2 weeks Commute: 10 to 15 minutes from one part of town to another; 80 minutes to Memphis Crime: Not much experience Moral of the story---live in a small town and enjoy life more with less money earned working 80 hours per week like y'all. Regards Dave Y'all are both invited to come visit and we will go to Shiloh, Brice's Crossroads and Vicksburg and have a couple of cold beer and some good eating.
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Post by edavids on Sept 7, 2015 21:13:44 GMT -6
Obviously you two have trouble keeping a job. I worked for the University of Mississippi 27 years then retired. Putted around with odd jobs for 12 years after. All this while living in the same town I moved to in 1960 as a Navy brat. Married a local woman, been happily married since 1972, with 2 children and 3 grandchildren. Weather story: 1996 ice storm 6" no power 2 weeks Commute: 10 to 15 minutes from one part of town to another; 80 minutes to Memphis Crime: Not much experience Moral of the story---live in a small town and enjoy life more with less money earned working 80 hours per week like y'all. Regards Dave Y'all are both invited to come visit and we will go to Shiloh, Brice's Crossroads and Vicksburg and have a couple of cold beer and some good eating. I prefer to believe that I always kept my career options flexible . Fred will have to defend himself on this one. Thank you for your kind offer, Dave. Should I be able to take you up on your offer I will be sure to bring a few Colorado microbrews as a thank you. I believe northern Colorado has well over 30 microbreweries and I have yet to sample a bad one. I'd also like to see several battlefields from the Western Theatre having already visited a few out East (Gettysburg, Antietam, Chancellorsville, The Wilderness, Fredericksburg et al), as well as several Revolutionary War sites. Best to you, your Mrs. and keep enjoying those grandkids!
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Post by edavids on Sept 7, 2015 21:21:30 GMT -6
Let's see if I can come up with a quick summary.
1) Alfred Terry was no amateur soldier (neither was Custer). 2) Alfred Terry gave precise orders once you get thru the politeness. 3) Custer chose to sidestep those orders. 4) Only Custer really knows why he sidestepped his orders. There is plenty of room for conjecture as to the why whether we look at his personality, history, correspondence, hearsay during the Feb 15-June 22 time frame, etc. 5) The unanswerable question is what impact would there have been on LBH and the Summer 1876 campaign had Custer chosen to follow his orders. I think this is where conjecture and debate can get fun.
Now I wanna check out some other threads, then come back to this one.
David
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Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 8, 2015 6:41:46 GMT -6
Dave wanted me to post this here so here goes... I dislike intensely hawking my own works, be they the two books or any of the articles, but I will say you are much better off with the print version of Strategy. Like I alluded to earlier, the key to this whole thing-- and therefore the book-- is the timing of every single event. There are 25 time charts and almost 400 notes that go with those charts. I believe the pedant counted 800 entries, a number of them dupes because I felt it necessary to place events in one part of the field within multiple time charts to make the reference easier. Those dupes are generally in a darker tone in the book. I might also suggest multiple bookmarks, for you will find yourself going from one chart to another. The publisher and I thought it best to keep them all together, so I think it is fairly well organized. Remember, every single one of those time events is not only supported by eye-witness accounts, but is actually derived from those accounts. The only ones made up by me are those with the endnote, "Simulation." Even the entries where you have multiple Ree scouts mentioned were "developed" by those Rees themselves. A lot of people do not understand this. What I, personally, found so fascinating was when one account verified another. It was startling to me... no hyperbole there, at all. A few examples off the top of my head were Benteen's arrival at Reno Creek verified by the speed of the pack train (obviously, independently); the Boston Custer-Martini meeting; the Rees being fired on by Custer's stragglers; the sighting of Kanipe by the Rees... and there were a few more, but I forget which ones. Boy, you talk about a rewarding exercise!!! Not because it proved any theory of mine, but because it validated my methodology. That's when I knew I was onto something. Anyway, I hope you enjoy it. Best wishes, Fred. This points to a key point I tried to make with Rosebud who claimed he could only ride down Reno Creek at 4 mph. I believe him but he was not the 7th cavalry trying to catch up with village that may be packing up to leave. The bottom line was as I told him its the timeline and how they fit that matters. Gray built his model using the textbook overall marching speed of a walk and then choose data to fit. In Fred's book the speed is determined by the timelines with numerous citations. So Gray let the speed of 4 mph determine which accounts to use and Fred used all of the accounts to determine the speed. Fred's speeds are all within the capabilities of the horses of the 7th cavalry. I think the 4 company C horses were a good indicator that they did not move slower than a walk at 3.9 mph as Gray suggested. 5 mph is the horse trained rate of speed for a cavalry walk. Those 4 horses were exercised at a greater speed and the climb up to the bluffs finished them off at for a short period of time. If you want to use Gray's speed and time than Custer would be allowing the Indians to pack up and move out before he got there. Regards AZ Ranger
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Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 8, 2015 7:23:50 GMT -6
I've been following the "Terry's Orders" thread on the other board. Not taking any potshots but I still believe that an aspect of Terry's LOI to Custer that gets lost in 2015 is the gentility often used in writing at that time. I get from our military guys/gals that an order, now matter how politely or indirectly stated, is an order. Many folks in 2015 don't get that. There is a literalness in interpretation that if the guy in charge doesn't write "do this dammit or else..." that it really isn't an order and there is no need for further debate. Terry's LOI is filled with a gentleman's politeness IMHO (It is, impossible to give you any definite instructions in regard to this movement, and were it not impossible to do so the Department Commander places too much confidence in your zeal, energy, and ability to wish to impose upon you precise orders which might hamper your action when nearly in contact with the enemy. He will, however, indicate to you his own views of what your action should be and he desires that you should conform to them unless you shall see sufficient reason for departing from them). His instructions are firm and crystal clear, however (He thinks that you should proceed up the Rosebud until you ascertain definitely the direction in which the trail above spoken of leads. Should it be found (as it appears almost certain that it will be found) to turn towards the Little Bighorn, he thinks that you should still proceed southward, perhaps as far as the headwaters of the Tongue, and then turn toward the Little Horn, feeling constantly, however, to your left, so as to preclude the escape of the Indians passing around your left flank). AZ Ranger/Benteeneast has consistently addressed the "best available decision" mantra as reasons for actions counter to orders and maybe that let's Custer off the hook a little bit. Would help more if he hadn't lost his own life and 50% of his regiment KIA/WIA. As a little proof - I alluded to this earlier, but Grant & Lee's correspondence in April 1865 often uses the common correspondence closing of that era "your obedient servant" HEAD-QUARTERS ARMIES OF THE U. S., "5 P. M., April 7, 1865. "GENERAL R. E. LEE, COMMANDING C. S. A. " GENERAL,--The results of the last week must convince you of the hopelessness of further resistance on the part of the Army of Northern Virginia in this struggle. I feel that it is so, and regard it as my duty to shift from myself the responsibility of any further effusion of blood, by asking of you the surrender of that portion of the Confederate Southern army known as the Army of Northern Virginia. " Very respectfully, " Your obedient servant, " U. S. GRANT, "Lieutenant-General commanding Armies of the U. S." Add to this R.E. Lee's orders to General Ewell on Day 1 of Gettysburg to launch and assault on the Union positions on Culp's Hill "if practicable". Lee was famous for his gentile way of phrasing orders but the meaning, or "intent" as Fred aptly states, is concise - unless your entire corps is dead get up there now! I don't see Terry's instructions not carrying the same weight. Ramblings from the newbie but I hope this adds a viable dimension to the topic. David Great Post I don't think anything but Custer's death let him off the hook. I think Terry pointed out two areas where he believed Custer disobeyed. The Tullocks scout and turning on the Indian trail as soon as it turned. Those are Terry's observations and he certainly would have some say regarding a live Custer's disobedience. As far as a live Custer being able to argue that he was making the best available decision it would have to have resulted in a different outcome. I think by turning and not at least scouting somewhat further up the Rosebud he gave up the ability to move by an informed decision making deviation of the order. It's only because we know where the Indians were located that eliminates them from still being at the Reno Creek and SFRC junction. It wasn't because Custer scouted. If they were there they could have fled the same routes they used to go fight Crook and the warriors could have come around and behind the rear guard and pack train. ( I think the Benteen Scout order may have recognized this problem.) The village was located there on the LBH by chance and not by any pre determination that a Custer recon did. Custer followed the trail of the tipi poles. The warriors didn't drag poles to go fight Crook. They would need them to attack Custer from the rear either. Regards AZ Ranger
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Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 8, 2015 7:45:34 GMT -6
Obviously you two have trouble keeping a job. I worked for the University of Mississippi 27 years then retired. Putted around with odd jobs for 12 years after. All this while living in the same town I moved to in 1960 as a Navy brat. Married a local woman, been happily married since 1972, with 2 children and 3 grandchildren. Weather story: 1996 ice storm 6" no power 2 weeks Commute: 10 to 15 minutes from one part of town to another; 80 minutes to Memphis Crime: Not much experience Moral of the story---live in a small town and enjoy life more with less money earned working 80 hours per week like y'all. Regards Dave Y'all are both invited to come visit and we will go to Shiloh, Brice's Crossroads and Vicksburg and have a couple of cold beer and some good eating. Only 27 years. I did 35 years at AZGFD and still an active reserve officer. I think I have to go through a transition period. This weekend I rescued 3 persons on a burning boat. Got them off the boat and waited for the fire boat. I helped persons in a rental boat that broke down. I arrested a subject on a warrant while at the Maverick gas station. Then on a two officer patrol we went 26 miles up lake and at the very end of West Canyon found a boat with 6 persons on board. The steering had froze up and it could not turn. I also issued citations who various activities . A spousal abuse was reported going on in the Antelope Point Marina store but when I got close enough to the guy to hear what was going on they were smart enough to cease. Most of time that doesn't happen. Regards AZ Ranger
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Post by edavids on Sept 8, 2015 7:52:16 GMT -6
Obviously you two have trouble keeping a job. I worked for the University of Mississippi 27 years then retired. Putted around with odd jobs for 12 years after. All this while living in the same town I moved to in 1960 as a Navy brat. Married a local woman, been happily married since 1972, with 2 children and 3 grandchildren. Weather story: 1996 ice storm 6" no power 2 weeks Commute: 10 to 15 minutes from one part of town to another; 80 minutes to Memphis Crime: Not much experience Moral of the story---live in a small town and enjoy life more with less money earned working 80 hours per week like y'all. Regards Dave Y'all are both invited to come visit and we will go to Shiloh, Brice's Crossroads and Vicksburg and have a couple of cold beer and some good eating. Only 27 years. I did 35 years at AZGFD and still an active reserve officer. I think I have to go through a transition period. This weekend I rescued 3 persons on a burning boat. Got them off the boat and waited for the fire boat. I helped persons in a rental boat that broke down. I arrested a subject on a warrant while at the Maverick gas station. Then on a two officer patrol we went 26 miles up lake and at the very end of West Canyon found a boat with 6 persons on board. The steering had froze up and it could not turn. I also issued citations who various activities . A spousal abuse was reported going on in the Antelope Point Marina store but when I got close enough to the guy to hear what was going on they were smart enough to cease. Most of time that doesn't happen. Regards AZ Ranger Pretty much swamps my NY crime story.
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Post by fred on Sept 8, 2015 9:34:54 GMT -6
Moral of the story---live in a small town and enjoy life more with less money earned working 80 hours per week. Damn right. That is what my wife and I will be doing within the next year... though probably remaining in the north. And be careful who you invite, where. You may just get a quick notice one day. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Sept 8, 2015 9:37:38 GMT -6
Let's see if I can come up with a quick summary. I like your summary and basically, I agree with everything you wrote. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Sept 8, 2015 9:44:15 GMT -6
... I will be sure to bring a few Colorado microbrews as a thank you. I believe northern Colorado has well over 30 microbreweries and I have yet to sample a bad one. Oh-h-h! A man after my own heart. When my five buddies and I meet up at the LBH, one of them sends out several cases of micros from Oregon and Washington (he lives outside of Seattle). Battlefields and micro-breweries... that's it for 10 solid days. See you next June!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by montrose on Sept 8, 2015 10:54:43 GMT -6
Steve wrote: Great Post I don't think anything but Custer's death let him off the hook. I think Terry pointed out two areas where he believed Custer disobeyed. The Tullocks scout and turning on the Indian trail as soon as it turned. Those are Terry's observations and he certainly would have some say regarding a live Custer's disobedience. As far as a live Custer being able to argue that he was making the best available decision it would have to have resulted in a different outcome. I think by turning and not at least scouting somewhat further up the Rosebud he gave up the ability to move by an informed decision making deviation of the order. It's only because we know where the Indians were located that eliminates them from still being at the Reno Creek and SFRC junction. It wasn't because Custer scouted. If they were there they could have fled the same routes they used to go fight Crook and the warriors could have come around and behind the rear guard and pack train. ( I think the Benteen Scout order may have recognized this problem.) The village was located there on the LBH by chance and not by any pre determination that a Custer recon did. Custer followed the trail of the tipi poles. The warriors didn't drag poles to go fight Crook. They would need them to attack Custer from the rear either. Read more: lbha.proboards.com/posts/recent#ixzz3lAPZFLvATerry would have court martialed LTC Custer for an easy conviction. The conviction would be based on: 1. Custer's deliberate disobedience of orders to scout the Rosebud avenue of approach past the turn to LBH. 2. Custer's deliberate disobedience of orders to send the messenger Terry provided back to Terry. I think civilians do not understand the military culture in this regard. This minor contempt for Terry speaks volumes to folks familiar with military culture. All other charges in his court martial and Article 32 hearings would be influenced b this. The difference between UCMJ/Articles of War and civilian law is that the military looks for intentions and conditions. We have many lawyers here, kinda a sidebar. a. GAC told a fellow officer he had no intention of following orders on a plain platform (Chicago?, getting old and grey). So what? Bad intentions is not bad action. b. I struggle to come up with any excuse for GAC to fail to send Herendeen back to Terry. There is one, and only one condition that justifies this action. And that is that the Indian village was in Tullocks. c. Otherwise his decision to deliberately disobey orders gains him the combat power of a single shooter, at the cost of correlating forces and means with other elements.
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Post by jodak on Sept 8, 2015 12:28:46 GMT -6
b. I struggle to come up with any excuse for GAC to fail to send Herendeen back to Terry. There is one, and only one condition that justifies this action. And that is that the Indian village was in Tullocks. There are a couple of aspects of the concept of Terry using Tullock as a route that I struggle with. To begin with, rather than Terry using it as a route if clear, wouldn't it have been so much the better to use it if it were not clear and that was actually where the Indians were? After all, the overlying objective was to corral the Indians or bring them to battle, not to reach the LBH as such. Therefore, it seems to me that it would have made more sense for Terry to move down Tullock if it were not clear than if it were clear. As an adjunct to that, if Terry had used a clear Tullock as a route to the LBH and struck it roughly where Custer did, wouldn't he have been running considerable risk that the Indians would have been located north of that point and been able to evade by continuing to move north or circling around Terry to the north?
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shaw
Full Member
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Post by shaw on Sept 8, 2015 12:41:52 GMT -6
Fred I was Silicon Valley for 33 years. I went through 26 mergers and acquisitions during that time. I was on one side or the other. I bumped around quite a bit too. In on 12 month period I worked for three companies two of which were acquired, so five W-2's. In another year I also went through three different companies. It was crazy but I got used to it. No one should have to get used to it, but I did. I also spend 6 years at one place and four years twice at other companies. I got really good at finding jobs, not staying. Over my last eight years I consulted for various clients. My job was to leave. That felt more natural. Shaw David, I got out of the service, totally, in 1972, after 10 years. I got a job on Wall Street that year, eventually retiring in 1994. I did quite well, but got kicked around too much with all the mergers and acquisitions. It was a tough time: 11 firms in 22 years, and when you consider I spent a little over seven years with Donaldson, Lufkin, and Jenrette, that becomes 10 firms in 15 years. In one stretch I was with 5 companies in 53 weeks. And for a number of years my commute ran 6 hours a day, minimum, subject to the Long Island Railroad and the NYC subways. During the blizzard of '78, it took me 26 hours to get home. Back in 2010, I got the itch to return, so I took all the tests over again, got a job with Morgan Stanley (a very nice firm), then got wracked with prostate cancer; spinal surgery; and my wife falling down the stairs and shattering her ankle: "Sorry boys! I've enjoyed about all of this I can stand" and walked out in 2012, grateful for the return opportunity, but no thanks. Plus, the business was unrecognizable from the "old days." I imagine Madison Avenue wasn't a lot different. And people wonder why I'm grouchy. During that snowstorm, when I got homes after that 26-hour ordeal my (ex-)wife yelled, "Where have you been?" Oh, really? Best wishes, Fred. Anyone who spent any time in the NYC Metro Area has to have 1) A weather story; 2) A commuting story and 3) a crime story. I lived in Northern NJ; working in NYC for 15 of my 33 years there. I moved to that area in 1979, got into advertising because I could type 60 wpm on an IBM Selectric 2 typewriter and the rest is history. Was with 2 different ad agencies, 2 newspapers, a publishing company of a different sort and spent 11 years with LexisNexis in their law firm marketing division before a big layoff 2 years ago. There are virtually no similarities between the ad world of 1988 and 2015 with the power of the Internet. In 2012 decided it was a good time to change lifestyles, hence Colorado and not looking back. Had stops before NJ in (ascending order) San Diego, Carmel, Annandale VA, the US Naval Surface Weapons Lab in Dahlgren VA (16" guns make a lot of noise!!) and 11 years in Columbus OH. 1) - Weather - 30" of snow in 1994 or 1995 shutting down the whole area. Watched the whole thing from my 16th floor apartment. 2) Commuting - through Hoboken Terminal during a Nor'Easter in 1996 or so. Had to slog thru knee-deep Hudson River water in the terminal to get to a bus and get to work 4 hours late. 3) Crime story - stopped a pickpocket on the subway in 1992. I kept my wallet, caused him a little bit of pain, no one got hurt and hopefully that individual found a more gainful way to make a living. Good swapping stories with you. PS - I think I'm one of the babies in this forum 59 years old and not quite ready to retire.
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Post by Beth on Sept 8, 2015 13:03:42 GMT -6
Terry would have court martialed LTC Custer for an easy conviction. The conviction would be based on: 1. Custer's deliberate disobedience of orders to scout the Rosebud avenue of approach past the turn to LBH. 2. Custer's deliberate disobedience of orders to send the messenger Terry provided back to Terry. I think civilians do not understand the military culture in this regard. This minor contempt for Terry speaks volumes to folks familiar with military culture. All other charges in his court martial and Article 32 hearings would be influenced b this. The difference between UCMJ/Articles of War and civilian law is that the military looks for intentions and conditions. We have many lawyers here, kinda a sidebar. a. GAC told a fellow officer he had no intention of following orders on a plain platform (Chicago?, getting old and grey). So what? Bad intentions is not bad action. b. I struggle to come up with any excuse for GAC to fail to send Herendeen back to Terry. There is one, and only one condition that justifies this action. And that is that the Indian village was in Tullocks. c. Otherwise his decision to deliberately disobey orders gains him the combat power of a single shooter, at the cost of correlating forces and means with other elements. So are you saying that basically Custer perhaps was in essence giving Terry a one finger salute by not sending Herendeen down Tullocks? Beth
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Post by Beth on Sept 8, 2015 13:13:05 GMT -6
Fred I was Silicon Valley for 33 years. I went through 26 mergers and acquisitions during that time. I was on one side or the other. I bumped around quite a bit too. In on 12 month period I worked for three companies two of which were acquired, so five W-2's. In another year I also went through three different companies. It was crazy but I got used to it. No one should have to get used to it, but I did. I also spend 6 years at one place and four years twice at other companies. I got really good at finding jobs, not staying. Over my last eight years I consulted for various clients. My job was to leave. That felt more natural. Shaw Hubby is a firmware engineer. The whole industry is a bit insane that they view anyone who has stayed in the same place for a long period of time as growing stale. (long being about five years) We've been through the mergers, acquisitions, project terminations and cutback roller coaster ride for ages as well but unfortunately never had the protection of being in Silicon Valley where you can easily go from job to job without uprooting your life. Beth
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