Martin's "Ridge" and 3411

[mchlwilson]

(This thread references the attached photo)

In his various accounts Martin speaks at times of the "ridge" or "biggest hill" from which Custer viewed the village.  Over the years many thought he had referred to Weir Point.  Fred Wagner, on the other hand, has argued convincingly in favor of elevation 3411 as the location.  

In these days of automobile travel it's easy to pass over the terrain on the battlefield and fail to appreciate the way a cavalryman or an infantryman would have seen it.  The attached photo shows how on the approach from Reno Hill both 3411 and Sharpshooter Ridge appear to be one single ridge line running left to right.

Thus when Martin describes the terrain as a "ridge" that the entire command "passed over" his description was accurate from his perspective, if not technically correct, as SSR and 3411 are separate pieces of terrain.

Question: which of these two elevations would YOU choose for a view of the village? Left or right?


Michael

[Colt45]

Good picture showing the viewpoint Custer would have had as he approached the area. It is also obvious that going left to 3411 makes the most sense. It is easier to get to and will allow a view of the valley. As we know from hindsight, it doesn't allow a view of the entire village area, but from the viewpoint we have from your picture, the assumption would be that everything needed to be seen, will be seen from 3411.

[mchlwilson]

Aug 31, 2015 8:15:52 GMT -6 Colt45 said:

Good picture showing the viewpoint Custer would have had as he approached the area. It is also obvious that going left to 3411 makes the most sense. It is easier to get to and will allow a view of the valley. As we know from hindsight, it doesn't allow a view of the entire village area, but from the viewpoint we have from your picture, the assumption would be that everything needed to be seen, will be seen from 3411.

I agree, Colt45. Left seems the better choice. But I could imagine Custer sending someone up on SSR for a view to the north and east while he looked at the village.

[AZ Ranger]

When we rode from Reno Creek road we did not ride on the road from Reno Hill to the saddle between the bluff and SSR. The angle of approach is different than the picture which is coming from the Reno Hill direction. From a horse the road corridor looks like a ridge line also since it higher and sky lighted. There was no reason to ride up to the road elevation as we traveled around Reno Hill . If they had that view (from the road) than Thompson could not lose sight of Custer especially if went up on SSR.

My current belief is that Custer went down the Cedar Coulee drainage.

Martin rode both directions so if your out of vehicle at the information sign and looking toward Reno Creek the view would be similar to his return trip.

There is also a ridge below Weir and it is called the loaf by some. At the junction with Weir is a small saddle where it is easy to move out of Cedar Coulee and follow the next drainage toward the village. It provides cover and concealment.

I think that the picture shows what some might call a ridge and is a great example of why various account have differences. Their perspectives are different but what they see from their view points is accurate. I think that applies to a lot of the Indian accounts.

Good picture. To the right of the road in the picture is where I think Custer came up and it is lower in elevation than the road. That view in the picture could easily be the view Weir had as he rode from the peaks to Reno Hill and looked back toward Godfrey slowing the Indians advancement.

Regards

AZ Ranger

[mchlwilson]

AZ Ranger -

Thanks for your contribution to the thread. Since you say you rode a horse over the area I'm wondering what you your opinion is about Custer's horses. Would they have been tired out from the climb up the bluffs and the descent into MTC?

Michael

[AZ Ranger]

Hi Michael

I think the horses were tired enough that it caused 4 troopers of company C to drop out. We know that two of the horses went to the ground. Those horses had walked from FAL so it was not due a lack of exercising. More likely a particular stressful situation. Horses moving to the Ford D area indicate that they still were moving out. I would think there would be a range of remaining horse endurance and speed. I think the officers horses and the best of the trooper horses were in reasonable shape.

It would not take a long for most of them to recover once on top of the bluffs. The unknown quantity is what did they have left in regards to speed . Also the remaining endurance of all the horses or at least a large number of them. They had to remain in formations and only those there would know that factor. It could limit you decisions if you believed that more than half of the horses would drop out in a charge or river crossing.

So when working on your theory or reviewing others keep the range in mind and the need to be in formation rather than strung out.

When we rode up to the bluffs we were looking all around and talking . Two of the 6 horses would lag behind. We rode as far east as the next ridge line over from SSR. We rode down SSR. We rode down Cedar Coulee, and rode down the drainage next to the road. Not all on the same trip.

The most horse taxing climb was at the Reno retreat crossing climbing to the bluffs in the vicinity of the battlefield. The worst in my experience was the Benteen route area. You are crossing drainages at near right angles.

If you want to have a reasonable source of the rate of travel in my opinion then you need to have Fred's book The Strategy of Defeat at the Little Big Horn: A Military and Timing Analysis of the Battle.

www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=strategy+of+defeat

I am reasonably sure that Gray has Custer moving down Reno Creek to slow. How would you catch someone if you moved slower than a walk.

Regards

AZ Ranger

[fred]

Sept 2, 2015 6:29:17 GMT -6 AZ Ranger said:

I am reasonably sure that Gray has Custer moving down Reno Creek to slow. How would you catch someone if you moved slower than a walk.

He did: 3.9 miles per hour. Ridiculous.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[magpie]

Aug 30, 2015 11:08:25 GMT -6 mchlwilson said:

(This thread references the attached photo)

In his various accounts Martin speaks at times of the "ridge" or "biggest hill" from which Custer viewed the village.  Over the years many thought he had referred to Weir Point.  Fred Wagner, on the other hand, has argued convincingly in favor of elevation 3411 as the location.  

In these days of automobile travel it's easy to pass over the terrain on the battlefield and fail to appreciate the way a cavalryman or an infantryman would have seen it.  The attached photo shows how on the approach from Reno Hill both 3411 and Sharpshooter Ridge appear to be one single ridge line running left to right.

Thus when Martin describes the terrain as a "ridge" that the entire command "passed over" his description was accurate from his perspective, if not technically correct, as SSR and 3411 are separate pieces of terrain.

Question: which of these two elevations would YOU choose for a view of the village? Left or right?


Michael

Hi: I say none of the above I am going to be at the low between them as I am not going to let the enemy see more than my head at this point. I don't want him to see my troop and count. When I get to the Weir point complex I will cross the first minor ridge top through the notch for the same reason, now on the second minor ridge I have no choice but to expose my troop, I'm close to my objective so my enemy doesn't have much time to respond so then I go to the top of the hill to do my sight seeing and wave my hat: Yhee Haw lets get em boy's and down the draw to Ford B. In 5 minutes I'm in the bottom looking square at my objective but OH crap...................

[johnson1941]

“When we rode from Reno Creek road we did not ride on the road from Reno Hill to the saddle between the bluff and SSR.”

Interesting as someone interviewed {on edit - French in unpublished letter - see below} stated they saw ‘Custers command ride over the saddle of the high points’ - which many show & would think as Weir Point. Theyre wrong.

I think it important to note that the 1891 USGS map shows not only a 3500’ elevation high point on SSR, but also to the left & just at the bluffs - in the picture above it would make the left point even higher - as high as Weir point, on both sides of the saddle. Witnesses actually said that left point - Weir HILL, was the highest at the time.

I believe this is Herendeen's, the RCOI's, and so Camp’s (and Martin’s), etc's Weir HILL.

[johnson1941]

Other accounts have the trail going through the saddle of Weir Point (since cut out by the road) and down the slope of the bluffs. In an unpublished letter, French said Custer’s trail went over the saddle of the high ground, meaning the swale between the heights of Weir Point. (

"meaning…Weir Point” - says who?!



www.friendslittlebighorn.com/sharpshooterridgefieldtrip.htm

[johnson1941]

Martin:

“Cooke wrote out the message to Benteen and I started back with it on the trail. I did not follow Dry Creek all way back to coulee running north and south but cut across the high ground.”
…
“Met Boston Custer half way between medium coulee and Weir Hill. Boston asked me where Custer was and if he had been attacked…”

This is Martin's reference to '1/2 way between MEDIUM coulee and Weir HILL'…where Camp and Martini and Custer hitting Weir Hill and then heading down South (Cedar) Coulee - Martin is coming back ‘following Custer’s trail’ in a fashion, per Cooke - in Medium Coulee. But Martin says he didn't go back to the N/S coulee they came down - 'he cut across'.

And the point WMC has Martin sent back - 6184' from the river, seems to be right at the mouth of medium coulee - so him heading back UP medium makes sense.


Camp with Martin:
“Custer first halted on Weirs Hill and took look at village… Here he turned column to the right and went down {South} coulee to Dry Creek…”
“Inq. John Martin. Did Custer follow the bottom South Coulee all the way and make turn into Medicine Tail…” Yep.

[AZ Ranger]

Jun 10, 2023 22:10:37 GMT -6 johnson1941 said:

Martin:

“Cooke wrote out the message to Benteen and I started back with it on the trail. I did not follow Dry Creek all way back to coulee running north and south but cut across the high ground.”
…
“Met Boston Custer half way between medium coulee and Weir Hill. Boston asked me where Custer was and if he had been attacked…”

This is Martins reference to MEDIUM coulee and Weir HILL…where Camp earlier had Martini and Custer hitting Weir Hill and then heading down South (Cedar) Coulee - Martin is coming back ‘following Custer’s trail’ per Cooke - in Medium Coulee.

Hmm…

Camp with Martin:
“Custer first halted on Weirs Hill and took look at village… Here he turned column to the right and went down {South} coulee to Dry Creek…”
“Inq. John Martin. Did Custer follow the bottom South Coulee all the way and make turn into Medicine Tail…”

I rode with the owner of Cedar Coulee, and we started around 600 yards from the river. Weir is visible, and we used the eastern edge as a guide as we rode straight at it. That way, we did not backtrack to Cedar Coulee or Middle Coulee. There were lots of ups and downs, and we would lose sight of Weir in the bottoms, but we easily corrected if necessary when we topped out. I believe that it was Middle Coulee that they went down, at least according to the map a scout drew. Curley stated some soldiers went straight across, and the only egress that is straight across is Middle Coulee. If you ride down Cedar Coulee, it turns east. Once you enter MTC, you can not cross due to the canyon-like terrain in the middle of MTC at that location. You must ride west down MTC until you reach the mouth of Middle Coulee, and then you can cross.

Regards

AZ Ranger

[johnson1941]

CHEERS, AZ - thanks!!!

[herosrest]

^Ducemus

I link www.astonisher.com/archives/museum/soldier2_little_big_horn.html my intro more years ago than I can believe sometimes. This led me to the Ree Narratives and their history.

I consider myself enormously fortunate to converse with one who has ridden up the little dip on the bluffs and usually agrees that Custer did it too. I walked the route, went without water, and was giddy close to IDGaF mode on reaching the little big hill at the river side of the road after it snakes out of the heights going east by south.

Something I have wondered about modern day LBH is whether it is safe to drink water from the river?

A chap looking like Bob Dylan came up in one of those VW camper vans, stopped and gave me water and a Hey Dude... You're stupid lecture but I was young and didn't g a f.

There is only one way to view that terrain, walk it from VC to the trail into Reno Ck. Which is where the VC should be. Take plenty of water and if you really want to understand the route, keep going. Busby is maybe 20 miles. I didn't bother since that would take the entire day on foot in Indian Country.

[johnson1941]

Imagine Weir Hill and Sharpshooters Ridge looking like this in 1876. 3500’ elevations…Weir HILL - ’the highest point in that vicinity’ (herendeen, DeRudio, Martin, bBenteen).

Thats what you would see making the roughly 1/2mile ride down the bluffs away from where Custer hit them, north from Reno’s corral. That’s what you have to cross (or go around SSH to the right), and that’s where Custer went (to the high point on the left) and was observed.

Go over that ridge make a right into south coulee, and there ya go. Like the troops did. “Nice traveling” as Herendeen called it.

Near a dozen primary witnesses describe &/or confirm it…most on the ground, over 120 years ago.

Whether its “up the little dip” or “through the saddle of the high ground” or ‘the highest point just down from where DeWolf was killed’, or ‘the highest point, about a 1/2 mile from Reno corral’ or ‘a high pinnacle where custer waved his hat’ or “Weir Hill” - thats the place.


“3411” is an elevation bm on a map in 1967. Weir Hill is identified in 1879 by Herendeen, and described/located in great detail by him, DeRudio & Martin & Curley and re: by Camp. Benteen knew it, so did Reno. Its confirmed on Benteens sketch, likely with Martin & DeRudio.

Camp tells us exactly where it is, what you could see from it (in his opinion i.e. village), and even recorded its altitude, already slightly lower in 1908/10 than Weir Peaks, & lower then in 1891 when it was 3500’. He w/& numerous witnesses tell us what went on around there.

Its not a mystery.

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