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Post by fred on Jul 18, 2015 17:16:03 GMT -6
Actions. The actions following the order at the lone tepee also provide data on what happened. The main body slowed down and allowed the Reno detachment to get several hundred yards ahead. Then they maintained the proper interval of an advance guard and main body from the lone tepee to Ford A. Precisely... indicating what? In my mind it is just one indication of Custer's intent to provide direct support, i. e., a follow-up directly behind Reno? To me there is another example... Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by welshofficer on Jul 19, 2015 3:40:32 GMT -6
Fred,
I would pay close attention to both the movements of Adj Cooke and to the deployment of so many of the scouts/guides etc with Reno, before anybody argues that Reno was not intended to be the advance guard for GAC's main column.
WO
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Post by fred on Jul 19, 2015 6:17:02 GMT -6
WO,
I do not want to get embroiled in definitions here, "advance guard" included. For what it is worth, in the 19th century, armies marched on as broad a front as possible, consistent with their tactical considerations and requirements. An advanced guard is a powerful, detached body, which must expect to fight, unsupported—something Reno did not expect to have to do—and it should have its own advanced guard—something Reno did not have.
Advanced guards can be corps-size or they can be merely pickets or front-running (not flankers) vedettes, and they facilitate the march of the main body as well as guarding against surprise. Neither was the case at the LBH. In addition, they perform two main duties: they are the eyes and ears of the main army and they fix an enemy, as well as contain him. To facilitate the first, i. e., eyes and ears, the advanced guard needs to contain cavalry, but to “fix” the enemy, it needs infantry and artillery. Reno had neither.
Armies not prepared fully to engage use advance guards generally; that was not the case at the LBH. Also, they are used to give the main body time to prepare and for the purpose of determining the enemy’s strength and dispositions. Again, that was not the original intent of Custer’s plans at the LBH. Reno was sent down the valley to attack and start mayhem. That was always the intent of army forces attacking a village and it was no different at the LBH.
That is about as much as I would like to hear of that subject.
Cooke's role-- in my opinion-- is only part of the issue regarding the preferred support. At this stage of the event, I also see a rapidly diminishing role for the scouts, and indeed, other than the report of the Rees regarding Indians coming back up the valley, their role is almost irrelevant other than for their own particular movements.
What I am interested in now is the role-- if any-- played by Keogh. What was it? What was its purpose? And maybe even more important, was there any role even played by Keogh?
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by welshofficer on Jul 19, 2015 14:19:34 GMT -6
Fred,
You'll find no argument from me over esoteric debates about the nomenclature.
The movements of Cooke are consistent with Reno leading the attack and being supported from behind. Likewise, GAC didn't bring many scouts to his column, as you would expect, if he was intending a movement other than directly supporting Reno from behind.
Wasn't Keogh also with Reno at some point, suggesting he was looking for river crossings for his battalion to support Reno?
WO
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Post by fred on Jul 19, 2015 14:31:35 GMT -6
Wasn't Keogh also with Reno at some point, suggesting he was looking for river crossings for his battalion to support Reno? Ah-h-h! You have answered both questions in one sentence. There is evidence of sorts Keogh accompanied or at least went toward the river in advance of the Custer column. The question would be, why? You have arrived at the same conclusion I have. So I think-- from what I have read here-- the consensus is Reno received the attack order from Cooke, but did speak briefly with Custer-- have we arrived at that decision?-- then Reno moved toward the river. Now I need to see if there is agreement or discussion in how fast Reno moved; what happened when he reached the river; where's Custer?; where's Cooke?; where's Keogh? how long did it take to cross; did Reno stop.... Opinions are greatly appreciated. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Colt45 on Jul 19, 2015 14:57:46 GMT -6
I think Justin is quite correct in stating Keogh was probably looking for a place to ford the river in support of Reno. At this point, it would appear Custer planned on supporting Reno from the valley, as he should have. Cooke appeared to be moving between the Reno battalion and Custer's battalion during Reno's crossing, as was most likely Keogh. Now the big question is: What made Custer change his mind about following in the valley?
In "Strategy", Fred believes the decision to move to the bluffs comes from a scout telling Custer the Indians are running down the valley. I think this is very likely the reason the "plan" changed. Could there be another reason? In any event, why didn't Custer send a messenger to Reno indicating his change of plan, and why didn't he send one to Benteen advising him of Reno's advance in the valley and his march up the bluffs. This is the point where he lost communication and control of the entire regiment and reduced the 7th to 3 individual units acting independently of each other.
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Post by Beth on Jul 19, 2015 16:13:15 GMT -6
But where was Keogh looking to ford? Why wouldn't he use the same place as Reno or was he looking to bring his battalion in at different angle? Could he have been seeing if he could spot a place along the bluffs from the valley floor?
Would Keogh have already received orders from Custer on the plan for the valley at this point and if so, could Custer have then issued a new order. Or am I just confusing myself?
Beth
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Carl
Full Member
Posts: 125
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Post by Carl on Jul 19, 2015 19:06:30 GMT -6
Wallace was the designated Engineer Officer and as such recorded times and itinery and was (I imagine) part of Regimental headquarters group. Where,when, and why did Wallace rejoin his company ? Is this another indication that GAC intended to follow Reno ?
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Post by welshofficer on Jul 19, 2015 19:34:15 GMT -6
In any event, why didn't Custer send a messenger to Reno indicating his change of plan, and why didn't he send one to Benteen advising him of Reno's advance in the valley and his march up the bluffs. This is the point where he lost communication and control of the entire regiment and reduced the 7th to 3 individual units acting independently of each other. Colt45,
Why indeed? That is a key question for me. If one is going to divide in the face of a numerically superior enemy, maintaining as much mutual support as possible or at least the ability to quickly co-ordinate mutual support becomes pivotal.
WO
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Post by jodak on Jul 19, 2015 19:48:38 GMT -6
Hi Carl,
Wallace requested permission to go with Reno. Without looking it up, I believe that he reported to Reno and laughingly told him that he was his volunteer aid. It seems that Wallace had no contact with his company while in the valley, and he recounted seeing Reno go into the timber with company G (Wallace's company) as if he (Wallace was merely an observer of this action. It would also seem that he naturally gravitated to his company and assumed command of the remnants on the hill, based upon his conversation with Benteen in which the later asked him for a status on his men. However, it may be that Reno had already instructed him to take command of the company. You make a good point that it seems likely that Custer would not have granted him permission to go with Reno unless he (Custer) was also going in the same direction. For some reason that I don't quite understand, Wallace is a key player in the minds of the conspiracy theorists.
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Post by jodak on Jul 19, 2015 19:51:29 GMT -6
In any event, why didn't Custer send a messenger to Reno indicating his change of plan, and why didn't he send one to Benteen advising him of Reno's advance in the valley and his march up the bluffs. This is the point where he lost communication and control of the entire regiment and reduced the 7th to 3 individual units acting independently of each other. Colt45,
Why indeed? That is a key question for me. If one is going to divide in the face of a numerically superior enemy, maintaining as much mutual support as possible or at least the ability to quickly co-ordinate mutual support becomes pivotal.
WO
This goes to the larger issue of Custer having abdicated his responsibilities of regimental commander and taken on the role of a wing or battalion commander.
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Post by welshofficer on Jul 19, 2015 20:09:25 GMT -6
Hi Carl, Wallace requested permission to go with Reno. Without looking it up, I believe that he reported to Reno and laughingly told him that he was his volunteer aid. It seems that Wallace had no contact with his company while in the valley, and he recounted seeing Reno go into the timber with company G (Wallace's company) as if he (Wallace was merely an observer of this action. It would also seem that he naturally gravitated to his company and assumed command of the remnants on the hill, based upon his conversation with Benteen in which the later asked him for a status on his men. However, it may be that Reno had already instructed him to take command of the company. You make a good point that it seems likely that Custer would not have granted him permission to go with Reno unless he (Custer) was also going in the same direction. For some reason that I don't quite understand, Wallace is a key player in the minds of the conspiracy theorists. Jodak,
I don't think 2nd Lt Wallace had much option but to re-join G Company on Reno Hill, after 1st Lt McIntosh (commanding) was killed in the flight from the timber.
WO
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Post by jodak on Jul 20, 2015 4:51:48 GMT -6
That was what I meant, that he saw the need and took it upon himself to fill it.
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Post by fred on Jul 20, 2015 7:59:48 GMT -6
Where,when, and why did Wallace rejoin his company ? Is this another indication that GAC intended to follow Reno ? Exactly... he was sent with Reno... yet his company was also with Reno, but Wallace rode separately indicating his job as "engineer officer" was not yet finished. And remember, being detached left McIntosh with no officers. Very good point, and one I had not thought of before. That kind of comment is exactly what I was seeking when I started this thread. Best wishes, Fred.
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