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Noise
Jun 17, 2015 4:14:12 GMT -6
Post by mac on Jun 17, 2015 4:14:12 GMT -6
One of the things that interests me is the role of battle noise in events. I am sure commanders use all their senses to the fullest extent including hearing. The thing here is that when the battle is at its peak the warriors will have closed to hand to hand range and there will be less noise than would be expected by the conventions of the time. Fred makes one reference to this in his book. Given that the 7th has been divided and that largely the groups have no visual contact I wonder about the significance of battle noise, or lack thereof, in the perceptions of the battle. Give it some thought and lets see what people think. Cheers
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Noise
Jun 17, 2015 5:16:12 GMT -6
Post by tubman13 on Jun 17, 2015 5:16:12 GMT -6
Mac, I will be at the battlefield by Sunday. I wish I could get someone to fire a gun at LSH and the Keogh area while I stood at the Reno Hill location. We must remember that there are higher hills between these areas. Weir,3411, Sharp Shooter Ridge, all will absorb and diffuse sound. I will also defer to others on this, the sharp crack of rifle fire is not as loud from black powder as it is from modern powders. That is my experience, anyway. Still in all, if the firing close to Reno Hill had stopped, I would think firing would be discernible.
Regards, Tom
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Noise
Jun 17, 2015 6:14:16 GMT -6
Post by Yan Taylor on Jun 17, 2015 6:14:16 GMT -6
Hi Mac/Tom; if we are referring to the final minutes of those that were left on LSH, they both the various tales passed down through Indian folklore then most of the Indians used bows to rain down arrows on the few men that were still alive. This would seem like the best way to hit any survivors still hunkered down behind dead horses, this indirect fire would be more effective than the direct mode due to the slope of the hill and the cover provided by the horses. So if they were firing bows then the noise would naturally sub-side compared with any earlier crescendo. But I get what you mean and this snip gives you something of the noise level that comes with firing in volley, the line is only few in number but so would some of the companies deployed that day as many were understrength and would have troopers taken out of the firing line to act as horse holders; linkIan.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 17, 2015 7:19:23 GMT -6
I am not at all sure how to address this or what there is to address.
In battle all senses are focused upon the here and now, close and personal. Therefore were you in Company F on LSH and a portion of Sitting Bull's nearest and dearest were assaulting you, the Battle of Gettysburg could have been going on in each of the sectors of Companies C,E,I, and L and it would probably have escaped your notice.
This is also true for those unengaged at the moment as well. The mind focuses on the here and now. I was watching Rizzoli and Isles last night in my great room. I tend to focus on mystery shows for the obvious reason, trying to figure out who the bad guy is. Joan walks in with a hot cup of tea. I look up and say did you make one for me as well. She said I called from the kitchen (the next room) three times asking and you did not answer me. My hearing is decent for my age, so I probably did hear her but my focus and attention was elsewhere.
So as far as applying some artificial test by firing shots from this or that location and seeing if it can be heard at another, and any data derived being conclusive proof, I don't really think valid. There is no way to conclusively prove one way or the other what a man heard or did not hear. The only thing that can be proven is that at the exact hour, minute, and second of the test a man, a different man, could or could not hear.
I can also hear my dog barking at the moment in the back yard. I expect she is barking at a squirrel, as she does frequently each morning. There is one that lives in the tree next door that drives her crazy. It sounds like her squirrel bark. I expect it is her squirrel bark. From where I am though I cannot tell if it is the squirrel or Godzilla. You tend to hear what you expect to hear. On battlefields in the near presence of the enemy you would expect to hear firing, and distance tends to defuse intensity.
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Noise
Jun 17, 2015 7:33:08 GMT -6
Post by Yan Taylor on Jun 17, 2015 7:33:08 GMT -6
Good points Chuck, I agree that each unit would be focused on their own personal battle to worry about what was going on elsewhere on the battlefield, especially the troops forming the firing line. I recall a number of testimonies by various officers who were stationed on Reno hill, gave a mixed response to what they heard, but would Custer have heard Reno’s men firing in volleys from 3,411? He would have had visual but any audio would probably have a time lapse if he could hear them at all, but I would guess once he moved down cedar coulee then all battle noise would probably cease.
Yes sometimes Susan pretends not to hear me, but we both can pull off the deaf ear trick if need be, especially if it involves doing the dishes or money.
Ian.
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Noise
Jun 17, 2015 13:04:43 GMT -6
Post by Beth on Jun 17, 2015 13:04:43 GMT -6
Even weather can effect how sounds travel. It's easy to see why giving all the things going on on Reno Hill people in different locations, doing different activities may or may not have heard gunfire.
Beth
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Noise
Jun 17, 2015 13:12:48 GMT -6
Post by Yan Taylor on Jun 17, 2015 13:12:48 GMT -6
Yes Beth the weather conditions especially the wind can cause variations in sound quality, one other thing and I know it may seem petty, was that if you had just been constantly firing your weapon whether it be a pistol or carbine like a lot of Reno's men had been, then would this deluge of noise give you ringing in your ears thus making faint noises like distant gun fire seem unnoticeable?
Ian.
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Noise
Jun 17, 2015 13:20:57 GMT -6
Post by dave on Jun 17, 2015 13:20:57 GMT -6
I am familiar with shooting while duck hunting. Having 3 guys with 12 gauge shotguns firing from a small blind will dampen one's hearing ability for awhile, especially if the ducks are really flying. I have been unable to hear other hunters shooting from 400 to 500 yards away at the same time or nearly the same time. Loud ringing in ears. Regards Dave
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Noise
Jun 17, 2015 13:56:07 GMT -6
Post by Beth on Jun 17, 2015 13:56:07 GMT -6
Yes Beth the weather conditions especially the wind can cause variations in sound quality, one other thing and I know it may seem petty, was that if you had just been constantly firing your weapon whether it be a pistol or carbine like a lot of Reno's men had been, then would this deluge of noise give you ringing in your ears thus making faint noises like distant gun fire seem unnoticeable? Ian. I can't speak for being around gunfire but have been exposed to other activities that require hearing protection--working around industrial machinery. racing, air shows... I remember if you didn't wear your hearing protection around machines that at first you would have a feeling of deafness or of sound being muffled and then after a while the ringing would start. I imagine that on Reno Hill not only where many people still had ringing ears but a few of the veterans probably had poor hearing to begin with after years of being exposed to gunfire. Sound and hearing are very interesting. Both hubby and elder daughter have hearing loss issues (what's called cookie bite hearing loss) and elder daughter wears hearing aids. In our house at least you never assume someone has hear you unless you have their attention. Beth
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Noise
Jun 17, 2015 16:14:56 GMT -6
Post by mac on Jun 17, 2015 16:14:56 GMT -6
I can't look at Fred at the moment but he mentions it in the context of Custer, initially on cemmetery, not realising that anything was up with Keogh. I wonder now if when C was out of sight from Calhoun there was not so much noise from firing when they were in fact being hit hard. Gotta go! Cheers
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jun 18, 2015 4:36:08 GMT -6
Mac, here is some old data I got from Fred, he posted this up a while back;
The C Company charge off Battle Ridge into Calhoun Coulee may have gone for as long as 650 yards.
From the middle of the presumed dismount area in Calhoun Coulee to the lower part of Finley/Finckle Ridge is 425 yards.
If C Company men reached Finley/Finckle Ridge, they would have had to go 670 yards to reach Calhoun Hill.
So if the distance from Calhoun to Greasy Grass Ridge is a 1.000 yards, then obviously the distance to Calhoun Coulee would be shorter, but being in a depression like CC would act as a barrier and I suppose it would muffle the sound somewhat. I would presume that C Company Trumpeter’s Bucknall and Kramer would have sounded some sort of order, maybe to dismount or something, maybe they also sounded one re-mount or even distress if they tried to re-mount and get away.
Ian.
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Post by jodak on Jun 18, 2015 6:06:49 GMT -6
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Noise
Jun 29, 2015 9:15:21 GMT -6
Post by welshofficer on Jun 29, 2015 9:15:21 GMT -6
I am not at all sure how to address this or what there is to address. In battle all senses are focused upon the here and now, close and personal. Therefore were you in Company F on LSH and a portion of Sitting Bull's nearest and dearest were assaulting you, the Battle of Gettysburg could have been going on in each of the sectors of Companies C,E,I, and L and it would probably have escaped your notice. QC,
Not rocket science is it?
Back to imputing hindsight.....Reno/Benteen knew GAC had the biggest command.
And look at all those hostiles heading northwards rather finishing off Reno....GAC must have the village in real trouble....
WO
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Noise
Jun 29, 2015 9:43:03 GMT -6
Post by quincannon on Jun 29, 2015 9:43:03 GMT -6
I suspect that is what I would conclude initially. Reno nor Benteen had no way of knowing that the Indians that faced Reno were not all that were present. Moving off as they did would send a message that the village was in deep trouble. Looking at this thing from that perspective changes a lot I think.
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Noise
Jun 29, 2015 12:26:13 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2015 12:26:13 GMT -6
I suspect that is what I would conclude initially. Reno nor Benteen had no way of knowing that the Indians that faced Reno were not all that were present. Moving off as they did would send a message that the village was in deep trouble. Looking at this thing from that perspective changes a lot I think. What a complete and utter load of clap!! Unbelievable. This is some of the best spin you have ever come up. Reno and Benteen MUST have known the village was in dire straits?!? This is comedy gold!! I have heard it all now. You are a real peach.
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