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Post by owyhee on Jun 2, 2015 8:04:41 GMT -6
Hello everyone,
I should have started here I think. I have long lurked these pages and learned much. So a bit about me.....
I live in Southwestern Idaho and am a lifelong history buff. I joined the army as a sapper in the late 80's and got the Uncle Sam world tour....mostly Panama. I own a small family store now and have a great family. I have traveled around many of the little known battle sites here in Idaho and have a fair grasp of western history.
The LBH fascinates me as there are so many personalities connected to this history. I have been to the battlefield twice and have a lot to learn. On a side note my last name is Shade and it has been said in my family as long as I can remember that Sam Shade was a cousin of ours at the LBH. I am still trying to absolutely verify this.
I might add that I am a Custer guy for sure.
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Post by tubman13 on Jun 2, 2015 8:21:00 GMT -6
Welcome owyheehane, did a foodservice sales workshop north of you about 17 years ago. You have a beautiful state.
Regards, Tom
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Post by quincannon on Jun 2, 2015 8:44:08 GMT -6
I have two relatives by marriage that both just retired from the Idaho Air National Guard. They live in Boise. Never been there but from what I hear from them it is definitely a place I have entered on my list.
I agree with Ian. Your screen name needs some abbreviation.
You said sapper, not combat engineer. That rang enough bells with me to enquire as to your unit of assignment.
Why would you wish to be anyone's guy might I ask? Does being anyone's guy give you a better understanding of what took place?
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Post by quincannon on Jun 2, 2015 9:12:08 GMT -6
Good Lord man you didn't have to shorten your name OH would have done just fine.
If I had to guess your unit was the 59th Engineer Company of the "No Ground To Give" Brigade. Right?
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jun 2, 2015 9:40:44 GMT -6
Nice one Owyhee, I thought we called them "Sappers" and you lot call them "engineers", but you guys have a lot in common with the French so you may call them that too, we believe in shorting stuff so the British army just calls them REME.
Ian.
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Post by owyhee on Jun 2, 2015 9:43:21 GMT -6
Good Lord man you didn't have to shorten your name OH would have done just fine. If I had to guess your unit was the 59th Engineer Company of the "No Ground To Give" Brigade. Right? I was in the 59th sapper Company in direct support of A co 5/87th 193 inf bde. I was also in A co 536th engineers and C co 326th 101st. Good times.
As for changing my name it was probably a good choice and I might as well have done that from the get go.
The reason I say I am a Custer guy is because it is his story that fascinates me in particular. It was the tragic end of a man that was considered an American hero in his day. He was much more than the man that died on that barren knoll.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 2, 2015 9:59:14 GMT -6
Fully agree about Custer being an interesting personality. Just don't forget American Heroes make mistakes and sometimes they die because of those mistakes alone.
Sapper is a "light" term and I have some passing interest in light. We came very near back in the day to making your brigade part of another light division. The other two brigades were to be the 53rd from the FLARNG, and the 92nd from the PRARNG.
The 193rd closed down in Panama as you probably already know. It was reactivated in 2006 or 07 at Fort Jackson SC. One of the battalions now assigned to that brigade is 1st Battalion, 13th Infantry (First at Vicksburg) which was formerly flagged as the 1/13th Infantry until 1956, and 1st Battalion, 1st Training Regiment from 56 to the mid 1980's. It was in 1st/1st TR that I received my basic training, so I have a kissing cousin relationship with your old brigade.
I am still going to call you OH. It sings to me.
Ian: We refer to our light engineer companies and those that serve therein as sappers. In truth the unit is designed an engineer company or battalion whatever the echelon may be, as there is no sapper branch. It is a function though, for a sapper is a light engineer not having access by MTO&E to all the heavy stuff normally associated with the CE, and having to deal with engineering problems by innovative methods.
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Post by Beth on Jun 2, 2015 10:06:58 GMT -6
Fully agree about Custer being an interesting personality. Just don't forget American Heroes make mistakes and sometimes they die because of those mistakes alone. Sapper is a "light" term and I have some passing interest in light. We came very near back in the day to making your brigade part of another light division. The other two brigades were to be the 53rd from the FLARNG, and the 92nd from the PRARNG. The 193rd closed down in Panama as you probably already know. It was reactivated in 2006 or 07 at Fort Jackson SC. One of the battalions now assigned to that brigade is 1st Battalion, 13th Infantry (First at Vicksburg) which was formerly flagged as the 1/13th Infantry until 1956, and 1st Battalion, 1st Training Regiment from 56 to the mid 1980's. It was in 1st/1st TR that I received my basic training, so I have a kissing cousin relationship with your old brigade. I am still going to call you OH. It sings to me. Ian: We refer to our light engineer companies and those that serve therein as sappers. In truth the unit is designed an engineer company or battalion whatever the echelon may be, as there is no sapper branch. It is a function though, for a sapper is a light engineer not having access by MTO&E to all the heavy stuff normally associated with the CE, and having to deal with engineering problems by innovative methods. And in civilian speak....? Beth
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Post by owyhee on Jun 2, 2015 10:20:58 GMT -6
I was fortunate to be in light or air mobile units my whole time in the service. I did do some construction work when I was with the 536th. We built a 140' double-double bailey bridge in Costa Rica. They used us 12b's as labor quite often in that battalion. As for light units I enjoyed them because we got slots for schools. I was able to attend airborne, air assault and JOTC (twice).
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jun 2, 2015 10:21:03 GMT -6
In my TO&Es I have two distinct types of sapper, Engineers and combat engineers, the engineers build roads and fortifications, the combat engineers blow them up, no seriously they can be your spearhead in any attack, depending on what you are up against.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Jun 2, 2015 10:52:49 GMT -6
You are testing my title of O Magnificent Benevolence, Sultan of Chantilly, Defender of the Faith, Keeper of the Flame, Last Hope of the Weak and Helpless , and All Round Good Guy this morning Beth, but I shall try. The United States Army in its great wisdom sees fit to every so often confuse itself by their changing of designations of units. It is a process unofficially known as reflagging to wit, and in so doing I will correct myself I missed a reflag. The 13th Infantry Regiment was converted into a basic training regiment to keep famous unit histories alive, There was no place in the combat forces structure, but by this means it could be kept on the active rolls. The entire 8th Infantry Division and all its subordinate units (including the 13th Infantry) were in actuality U S Army Training Center Fort Jackson. In 1954 a place was found for the 8th Division as part of our commitment to NATO. So the 8th Division was replaced at Fort Jackson by the then inactive 101st Airborne Division, and the 13th Infantry Regiment became the 325th Infantry Regiment. Nothing really changed except the flags they carried (thus reflagging), the signs in front of the unit headquarters , and the patch worn on the uniform. In 1956 Congress said I am confused (as if anything changes) is this thing at Jackson a division or if not just what is it and why do you call it a division if it is not. The Army having the backbone of a jellyfish when it comes to Congress, said well not quite and we will change it to U S Army Training Center Fort Jackson, and the 325th to the 1st Training Regiment, a title that is accurate but has no lasting meaning to a soldier, sort of like saying you went to the school on the hill rather than Cheyenne Mountain High., no spirit Things remained that way until Shy Meyer, the then Chief of Staff who wished all units to carry historic lineages, combat or training. By that time Congress did not give a rat's patoot, so 1st Battalion, 1st Training Regiment, again became 1st Battalion, 13th Infantry (First at Vicksburg), the First at Vicksburg part being part of the title but also an earned honorific, much like The Queens Own, or the given Royal Title in the British and Commonwealth Armies. . When the 193rd Infantry Brigade was inactivated as a combat unit, a place was found for it in the training structure. Thus the 1st Training Brigade, became the 193rd Infantry Brigade. The United States Army has an Engineer Branch, just like Infantry or Armor. They are the builders, the fixer uppers, and the blower uppers of the Army. When General Wickham first issued his Light White Paper in 83 his desire was to turn a portion of the Army's structure lighter, and more strategically deployable, to the world's various trouble spots. Not particularly Europe, but Wickham was a far sighted man who foresaw much of the hot spot tribulation of today. He realized that to be a fast deploying unit it could not have all the bells and whistles and must depend upon the field craft of its soldiers and the innovative adaptation of tactical concepts to get the job done. For instance light infantry attacks most often by stealth and infiltration. There were ultimately five divisions converted to this format and the 193rd Infantry Brigade, because of where they were, Panama. Divisions would set up various courses for Light Leader, Light Fighter, and keeping with their vital mission of supporting the maneuver battalion there was also a Light Sapper Course, designed to teach the combat engineer the "light" way. Somehow the term stuck, and it has become very much part of who they are and how they see themselves. The sapper is the shade tree mechanic that can often get your car fixed better and faster than the dealership. FLARNG= Florida Army National Guard PRARNG = Puerto Rico Army National Guard Did I miss anything? ?
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Post by quincannon on Jun 2, 2015 10:59:52 GMT -6
Just because a guy is an Engineer Ian does not make him a sapper, not in the United States Army it does not
If you wish to know what type of Engineer unit it is you look at the title which has changed
WWII Examples
1st Engineer Combat Battalion. 596th Engineer Construction Battalion, 999th Engineer Forestry Battalion
Modern
1st Engineer Battalion (Combat), 121st Engineer Battalion (Corps Support) 596th Engineer Battalion (Heavy Construction)
A regular old every day run of the mill engineer calling himself a sapper is something like walking into the enlisted men's club at Fort Bragg wearing jump boots with no wings on your uniform, and expecting to be alive the following morn. Some things are not done here in the Colonies.
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Post by Beth on Jun 2, 2015 11:09:15 GMT -6
Did I miss anything? ? I think that answered all of my questions --for now. I find it interesting that the military/congress recycles names sort of like car manufacturers recycle names (like Dodge bringing back the Dart)
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Post by quincannon on Jun 2, 2015 11:25:09 GMT -6
Blasphemy. In the United States Army dear lady, the history and lineage follow the unit colors. They are a continuum, and while a particular unit may be on the inactive rolls its history continues against the day when it will once again be filled to serve some useful purpose.
This is decided in two ways. Oldest get priority on the to be activated list, followed by historical association with a higher headquarters. For instance the oldest unit is the 1st Battalion, 5th Field Artillery (Alexander Hamilton's Battery) the only unit of the Regular Army to have Revolutionary War Battle Honors. There will be a light crust of ice on the infernal regions when 1-5 FA is inactivated. The oldest Infantry unit is the 3rd Infantry (The Old Guard) and again they will be directing traffic for the Second Coming of Christ.
As long as the 101st Airborne Division is active, there will be elements of the 327th, 502nd and 506th Infantry Regiments assigned.
Age and associations are how we do it.
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Post by tubman13 on Jun 2, 2015 11:42:21 GMT -6
Sappers, cleared some roads from Kuwait, to Bagdad. Light but dirty work, worked very closely with EOD. Maybe can Will chime in here and correct me, as I might be in error. I also think some cross training took place, on site.
Regards, Tom
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