jaguar
Junior Member
Posts: 74
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Post by jaguar on May 28, 2015 15:33:42 GMT -6
I take it that Fred was proposing that Custer attack at Reno's position in support of him with all his troops.
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Post by quincannon on May 28, 2015 15:47:27 GMT -6
Well I take it that Colt proposed, in fact outlined a very workable plan on how Custer could have fought the battle, in the valley, and even listing a plan B if plan A did not work out so well. Fred, who is as close to God Almighty when it comes to knowledge of this battle, and whose own book is worth a hundred times the trash you listed earlier, did nothing more than agree with Colt's evaluation and solution to the problem at hand, as did I and several others.
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Post by fred on May 28, 2015 15:55:58 GMT -6
... Colt proposed, in fact outlined a very workable plan on how Custer could have fought the battle, in the valley, and even listing a plan B if plan A did not work out so well. Fred... did nothing more than agree with Colt's evaluation and solution to the problem at hand, as did I and several others. Correct. Colt's evaluation is and was superb. It is Colt's, however, and I am envious that he outlined it before I did. But make no bones about it, it is Colt's... he deserves the credit; and I support him 100%. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on May 28, 2015 15:57:33 GMT -6
I take it that Fred was proposing that Custer attack at Reno's position in support of him with all his troops. Fred did not propose anything... at least not this Fred. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by quincannon on May 28, 2015 16:47:43 GMT -6
Accuracy of observation Jaguar is a military virtue.
Now if you want to stay here put aside the eternal debate on which weapon, the saber or pistol, is better to charge with (no one has given a damn in a 150 years), understand that a rifled weapon at 300 meters can be very lethal in the hands of a man trained to use it, most combat takes place within the 200 meter line, Murat was a tinker belle, Grant was a better practitioner of modern war than Lee; Sun Tzu, Clausewitz, and Jomini are canonized saints in Valhalla. Carmen is the best opera ever composed, and George Armstrong Custer was a goddamned fool who never grew up, but he did like dogs.
You may argue any point above, save Carmen, but you better put on your big boy pants in this crowd before you do. There is a price of admission charged here, and that price is never bring a lollypop stick to a gun fight.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2015 17:54:02 GMT -6
Accuracy of observation Jaguar is a military virtue. Now if you want to stay here put aside the eternal debate on which weapon, the saber or pistol, is better to charge with (no one has given a damn in a 150 years), understand that a rifled weapon at 300 meters can be very lethal in the hands of a man trained to use it, most combat takes place within the 200 meter line, Murat was a tinker belle, Grant was a better practitioner of modern war than Lee; Sun Tzu, Clausewitz, and Jomini are canonized saints in Valhalla. Carmen is the best opera ever composed, and George Armstrong Custer was a goddamned fool who never grew up, but he did like dogs. You may argue any point above, save Carmen, but you better put on your big boy pants in this crowd before you do. There is a price of admission charged here, and that price is never bring a lollypop stick to a gun fight. Shoot, and here I thought the price of admission was foul language and bully boy rants. You are real real peach.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on May 28, 2015 17:57:00 GMT -6
Jaguar, Custer's problems started before 25Jun76. He did not have good intelligence on the terrain he would operate over and very little intelligence on the strength of the enemy or its disposition. He had indications from his scouts that the village was in the valley of the LBH, but he didn't know exactly where. He should have had recon patrols (small in size) out in front well before he moved over the divide. Once he reached the point where he sent Reno into the valley to attack, he had not seen the village, didn't know exactly where it was, and sure as heck didn't know how large it was. His orders to Reno were to cross the river, attack the village, and he would be supported by the rest of the regiment. Reno did what he was ordered to do. Custer didn't provide the support. Now, what he should have done, is cross at Ford A, trailing behind Reno. Once Reno had to halt and go into skirmish line, Custer should have been just behind, ready to swing around Reno's left flank and engage the force that was in process of encircling Reno. Benteen should have been given orders to cross as well and come up from behind to be a further element to either maneuver or reinforce. Company B should also have been removed from the pack train and committed to battle. Why should Custer have done this? He had zero knowledge of the terrain north of Ford A, little knowledge of the number of actual fighters he would face, and no idea just how big the village was or how far north it stretched. Concentrating his firepower was the thing to do, not break it up into tiny pieces and feed it to the enemy. If the hostiles pitched into his entire regiment in the above scenario, and proved to be too much for the 600 soldiers, he could have pulled back by leaps and bounds to Ford A, crossed and then defended, or moved to the high ground just west of the ford and defended. Either option would have given him a chance to hold them in battle and in the same location until Terry joined from the north. By recrossing ford A and defending, he would have the pack train on that side of the river with all his supplies, so defending at that point would have been a smart thing to do, if defending was required. It also would have allowed the resumption of the offense after resupply. When, at the area of Ford A, he got word that the hostiles were running, he had no intelligence to allow him to realize they weren't "running away", but were in fact standing and fighting. So his move up the bluffs was based on a false assumption. At that point he really began flying by the seat of his pants. At 3411 he saw most of the village, but not the extent of it, and no ford in site from that point. So he keeps flying blind, going north hoping the hostiles are still just "running away" and all he has to do is find a place to cross and chase. Like pilots who keep pressing on when the weather deteriorates, and eventually kiss a mountain, Custer kept pressing on and the mountain kissed him. Custer never under estimated the size of the village or the number of warriors he would face. He advised his officers they would be going against the biggest village ever gathered and at least 1,500 warriors. What he did underestimate was the ability and backbone of his number 2 & 3.
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jaguar
Junior Member
Posts: 74
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Post by jaguar on May 28, 2015 18:51:54 GMT -6
Quincanno: You protect your position well by altering your arguments to deny a former position, but a tactician of words you are not as you have left a written trail which meanders in such distinctive ways as to reveal disjointed thought. It is only because it is too tedious to untwine that you find safe harbor. For example you make the broad generalization that cavalry would be cut down at 300 yards by infantry but when it is pointed out precisely why this statement is incorrect you the change your position to school me on the obvious point that a trained soldier could be effective at 300 yards. To make this turnabout you must of course ignore what I wrote about the lack of training to use the rear sight assuming the rifled musket had one. Now as Winston Churchill said "i don't mind criticism even when for the sake of emphasis it departs from reality for a time" I will put on my Big Boy. Pants and go to to toe with facts not gross generalizations spouted by a moving target. Later I will quote from the book I am currently reading which despite the others I have listed that you are fixated on deriding and when I do I think you will be greatly embarrassed by your inability to be selective in you criticisms of the book.
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Post by dave on May 28, 2015 18:52:54 GMT -6
Blah blah blah blah Unchanging and 2nd verse same as the 1st. Regards Dave
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jaguar
Junior Member
Posts: 74
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Post by jaguar on May 28, 2015 19:11:56 GMT -6
quincanno. Do you disagree with this statement by the author concerning the troops of the 7th? Any implied dishonor toward these brave men who rode under the colors of the United States of America has been misdirected and should be considered a grievous insult to anyone who has ever served in the military— as well as any true American. Do you take issue with this statement: These soldiers marched off under orders from their government with the blessing and admiration of the country’s population, which, along with their elected leaders had determined that the Sioux and Cheyenne, were a threat that must be dealt with harshly. Any blame for fighting a particular enemy should never be directed at those citizens who stepped forward to proudly wear the uniform representing their country and sacrificed so much to protect the national interests— including at times the ultimate sacrifice, their lives. I don't think you dispute these statements by the author but when you trash a whole book without specification who knows what you think you haven't said.
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Post by quincannon on May 28, 2015 19:34:54 GMT -6
Cedar Mountain sunny. At what range were they first engaged with rifle fire, that gallant band of blue horsemen? At what range did they think better of what they were doing? How many returned from whence they came.
Gettysburg sunny. At what range were they first engaged with rifle fire? At what range did they think better of what they were doing? How many came back?
At Gaines Mill sunny, and on and on and on.
Did it ever enter that pea pod that passes for your brain that cavalry is engaged at longer ranges than Infantry because they are closing faster, and while fire may not be all that effective at 300 yards it serves to distract and disorganize, to spread formations and reduce shock action and effect. Same goddamned thing we do against tanks today, break them up before they can bust your butt.
Thom Hatch is a hack. I take issue with a hack that tries to cover his lack of knowledge will fill such as you posted. Leave it at that.
But I will post the question in reverse to you. If he did not get the battalion organization correct, and he apparently did not know that Harrington commanded C during the battle, both those facts graven in stone, what little incorrect thing did he slip in that is not readily picked up on, just like that idiot Philbick has Custer halting and girl watching on Cemetery Ridge.
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Post by montrose on May 28, 2015 20:12:31 GMT -6
quincanno. Do you disagree with this statement by the author concerning the troops of the 7th? Any implied dishonor toward these brave men who rode under the colors of the United States of America has been misdirected and should be considered a grievous insult to anyone who has ever served in the military— as well as any true American. Do you take issue with this statement: These soldiers marched off under orders from their government with the blessing and admiration of the country’s population, which, along with their elected leaders had determined that the Sioux and Cheyenne, were a threat that must be dealt with harshly. Any blame for fighting a particular enemy should never be directed at those citizens who stepped forward to proudly wear the uniform representing their country and sacrificed so much to protect the national interests— including at times the ultimate sacrifice, their lives. I don't think you dispute these statements by the author but when you trash a whole book without specification who knows what you think you haven't said. Jaguar, I mean no disrespect. But I am deeply insulted by your post. Good men died at LBH, so did bad men. We know some men suicided out, some ran, some tried to surrender. But the issue is not what individuals did in these last minute or so of life. The issue is the horrible leadership and decisions of the officers who doomed them. The death toll at LBH is unique. Out of 1,000ish engagements in the Indian wars, this is the outlier. Something happened here that occurred no where else. I made a bad decision in combat that killed 2 men. They were Iraqis, and I don't even know there names. The Iraqi Captain and an NCO (not 1SG, SFC) objected, I over rode them, and I was wrong. Getting soldiers killed in combat is part of doing business, but it helps a lot if your decision was justified in rational analysis. Many deaths at LBH are not justified, men died for no tactical gain. The problem is that desperate fights get excessive attention. in the Global War on Terror (GWOT) there are some high profile fights that get disproportionate attention because of high casualties. There have been some very high ranking valor awards awarded to officers who should have been court martialed. (For the record, the highest valor award I have is an ARCOM< the lowest ranking valor award possible). Your post implies that because soldiers died, therefore we should ask no questions. My belief is because folks died, we damn well better ask questions. Again, I mean no offense, many emotional posts last two days.
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Post by Beth on May 28, 2015 20:14:18 GMT -6
Those are quotes from Hatch's book? No wonder QC threw it out!
When an author has to use such hackneyed cliched tripe to sell a book, he is a hack.
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Post by quincannon on May 28, 2015 21:07:32 GMT -6
He does buy decent tobacco though. Such is life.
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Post by quincannon on May 28, 2015 23:13:37 GMT -6
Jaguar: I will make you an offer. I have not fired a rifle since I last qualified in 1988. I happen to own a Springfield Rifle (not the same model). If you allow me 15 rounds to zero my weapon, the same monthly allowance in effect for soldiers in 1876 I will then cover the peep sight with black tape to simulate what you postulate, and one round of ball ammunition. You may choose your target, man sized standing, man and horse, or if you feel real lucky you (I do not recommend that). You may verify the 300 meter range by pace off. I will bet you fifty dollars that I will achieve a kill shot with my one round on that target. You know how to reach me.
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