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Post by fred on May 18, 2015 8:28:50 GMT -6
... who was this guy? I was once told they finally found Sturgis... SGT Edward Botzer, acting first sergeant of G Company. Several bones—including most of the facial bones—were found on the banks of the LBH at Reno’s retreat crossing during a 1989 archeological dig. They were almost certainly his, though there was some speculation they might be PVT Moody’s (Company A). Tests indicated the bones were from a 30 – 40 year old white male, 5’ 7” tall. Subsequent forensic reconstructions indicate the bones were most likely Botzer’s. Ken Hammer claimed he was killed at the retreat ford, but Hammer's claim may have come after the identification. As best I know, Sturgis was never ID'ed, but probably died on the SSL. Some people think he was captured alive and tortured in the village, but this is nonsense. His shirt was found there, but that proves nothing without a body. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by dave on May 18, 2015 9:12:13 GMT -6
Fred Outstanding! My dad would have said 4.0! I am impressed with your knowledge but even more so that you would share it with others so willingly. You are a generous man and a true scholar of the LBH.
Beth Great point regarding the Indian Memorial and how it was time to recognize the winners. I do wonder how some of the tribes interact today. Do the Crows and Rees visit the field with Sioux and Cheyennes? Do the old hatreds still exist? Do the Sioux and Cheyennee resent the actions of the Crows and Rees from 1876?
Would love to know? Regards Dave
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Post by Beth on May 18, 2015 16:03:19 GMT -6
Fred I am totally amazed and impressed. Do you keep that in your head or did you have to look it up. I am directionally challenged so excuse me if I ask questions that are probably very plain in your message.
Are you proposing that E troop was trying to use cemetery ravine to make a break towards the area we call Ford D then forced back by opposition and ended up in Deep Ravine?
Were in your opinion E troop ever on LSH? There is a story (and I am going by memory) about a trumpet sounding and a group charging off LSH, is it anecdotal? involve soldiers other than E troop?
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Post by mac on May 18, 2015 16:18:39 GMT -6
Brilliant Fred! I am not suggesting any error in numbers. I am wondering if Deep Ravine is the ravine containing E Co or could the movement at the end be re examined as to whether they could be forced in a direction that left them in a ravine north of Deep Ravine? Cheers
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Post by Beth on May 18, 2015 16:48:23 GMT -6
I knew I read something about this. It can't be Sturgis because it was found in the area that Reno made his crossing (per Where Custer Fell) and I think that Scott talks about it in one of his books but I am unable to look it up right now. Beth
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Post by montrose on May 18, 2015 18:27:26 GMT -6
Deep ravine is very interesting from the view point of the military decision making process.
E Company died in a cluster, meaning they stayed within company command and control until the bitter end. Yet, they died 600 meters from F Company and Regimental HHD. This is beyond mutual support range.So the very location points to a failure for both the battalion and regimental commander. Yates and Custer were still dispersing combat power when the tactical situation required mass.
In my opinion, company leaders reacted to the hesitation and incompetence of Custer and Yates to head for the closest defendable terrain. The officers in the Custer sector were all yes men, obeying orders that doomed their units to death, while minimizing enemy casualties.
Whoever ordered the E Company movement rejected the incompetence, and tried to save what he could. Sturgis or the First Sergeant.
I can explain further if there is any interest.
Just a reminder, our knowledge of what happened in the northern sector is very murky. Dark Cloud will likely weigh in on how many assumptions we have to make to discuss anything on Battle Ridge.
But I think available evidence allows me to discuss the issue within the bounds of empiricism.
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Post by fred on May 18, 2015 18:39:58 GMT -6
OK, one more time.
Custer, along with Yates (F) and Smith (E) backtracked from Ford D and landed-- in my opinion, pre-planned on a ridge... we call it Cemetery Ridge. They wanted to be on high ground so Keogh could see them easily. When they got there they saw this significant movement of Indians coming up the head-cut of Deep Ravine.
Realizing the danger, Custer sent Yates into the basin area to try to stem that flow. We have some evidence in the way of Cheyenne lore, but a little more empirical evidence by the location of specific bodies. Shortly after, Indians overran Cemetery Ridge, chasing off a number of the Gray Horse Troop's horses. Further pressure-- now coming out of Ford D-- pushed Smith and Custer up to LSH. Failing to stop the egress of warriors out of Deep Ravine and now beginning to feel pressure himself, Yates, too, moved up to LSH.
By this time, Keogh was mostly cooked and by the time he reached LSH, Custer knew it... and also realized the desperation of the situation. In a 1:10,000 shot, someone-- Custer, Yates, Cooke, TWC... whoever was still alive... ordered a controlled move off LSH toward the river. Where else could they go? What else could they do?
E Company was chosen... for whatever reason... maybe because Smith had died; maybe Custer had; maybe F had lost all its horses and E still had a couple remaining... who knows? And they made a break for it: 31 men.
They stayed on the high ground of the South Skirmish Line... why would they go into the lower ground of Cemetery Ravine/Coulee? (And Deep Ravine was too far away.) The low ground of Cemetery Ravine is too sloping and too subject to fire from the high ground to left (SSL) and to its right (Cemetery Ridge). Going there makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. So they stayed on the high ground and Indians backed away... like they always did... like they did for a few moments when Reno charged out of the timber and Harrington charged off Battle Ridge. Do you see the typical army tactics of the times versus Indians?
At some point-- and now beginning to take casualties-- the men ran out of steam and Indians on the high ground of Cemetery Ridge probably charged down into them forcing them to the depths of Deep Ravine where there were even more warriors.
That is the only scenario making sense to me. It is simple; it is clear-cut; it fits every single account we have; and it fits with the archaeology, such as it is in that area. It also fits with the small number of ID'ed bodies. Tactically, it also makes the most sense, even though it is clearly hopeless. I would guess that if E Company met with any success, F Company would have followed. Problem was that the run was too long, too arduous... and as usual, too many Indians.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on May 18, 2015 18:46:28 GMT -6
Beth, Fred.... Do you keep that in your head or did you have to look it up. This stuff is all from documents I have put together. I have always found the markers fascinating, so I have dug up as much stuff as I have been able to find about them. You will find some of it in Appendix C in the book. The real interesting stuff, however, won't be published because of its formatting, but I have attached names to every marker on the battlefield, most of them, of course, arbitrary, but even many of those with good reason. No, not at all. Read my previous post. Yes, they were. They moved there with Custer from Cemetery Ridge. I have heard that about the trumpet, but cannot place the where or when. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on May 18, 2015 18:50:13 GMT -6
I can explain further if there is any interest. There is plenty of interest... right here. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by chris on May 18, 2015 18:59:30 GMT -6
Montrose, What Fred said, Best, c.
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Post by montrose on May 18, 2015 19:21:46 GMT -6
Okay, let's start from known towards unknown.
6 KIA on Cemetery Ridge, Company Commander on LSH. Rest of company died in or near Deep Ravine.
Cemetery Ridge is crucial. When did those men die, early or late?
My assumption is they died early. They were horse holders wiped by the suicide boys. A horseless E Company has explanatory value for what happened after.
Smith being wounded and remaining with regimental HQ also makes sense.
Note that 6 dead on cemetery ridge, commander dead on LSH, all else dead in DR, means that wounded were abandoned on cemetery ridge, where they were killed. Having a skirmish where 6 died and zero wounded is basically impossible in military history.
Losing men and horses creates a sense of desperation. The E company movement reeks of desperation.
The logical tactic is to stay with main body, kill as many as you can. This maneuver was due to an effort to remain alive, vice fight a lost battle.
I was with a 9 man element that ran away from an Iraqi brigade, call it 2,000. If you want to call me a coward, be my guest. I am still here to talk about it. The Custer companies are not.
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Post by fred on May 18, 2015 19:35:03 GMT -6
6 KIA on Cemetery Ridge, Company Commander on LSH. Rest of company died in or near Deep Ravine. Cemetery Ridge is crucial. When did those men die, early or late? My assumption is they died early. They were horse holders wiped by the suicide boys. A horseless E Company has explanatory value for what happened after. Smith being wounded and remaining with regimental HQ also makes sense. Note that 6 dead on cemetery ridge, commander dead on LSH, all else dead in DR, means that wounded were abandoned on cemetery ridge, where they were killed. Having a skirmish where 6 died and zero wounded is basically impossible in military history. Losing men and horses creates a sense of desperation. The E company movement reeks of desperation. The logical tactic is to stay with main body, kill as many as you can. This maneuver was due to an effort to remain alive, vice fight a lost battle. Totally agree, especially with the movement as a sense of desperation. Absolutely!!!Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by montrose on May 18, 2015 19:52:09 GMT -6
Even if Sturgis was senior officer, which I think he was,....
I believe the First Sergeant initiated this movement. Officers were doing the deer in the headlights, it was time for a decision.
Kinda hard to explain the culture here. Senior sergeants may have 10-20 years more experience than some young buck officer, like Fred. In general, they try to implement decisions, even if officer younger than their own children.
But there is a breaking point. There is a point where senior NCOs are more qualified to make decisions than junior officers, and I mean across the board O1-O3, sometimes O4. Hell, sometimes commander in chief.
Custer screwed the pooch at LBH. We can get into the whys and hows. But at what point do his subordinates become responsible for making better decisions?
The disaster in the north led to total USA casualties, with minimum enemy KIA/WIA. The subordinate officers and NCOs are responsible and accountable for agreeing to this failure.
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Post by montrose on May 18, 2015 19:54:54 GMT -6
My point is that whoever led the movement to DR, had lost faith in regimental and battalion leadership.
From my experience, I think NCOs were vital to this decision.
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shaw
Full Member
Posts: 187
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Post by shaw on May 18, 2015 23:25:10 GMT -6
Fred
I wonder what it costs to dig in the new area? This seems to be important to the understanding of what took place at LBH. Any contact information of Dr. Scott?
Shaw
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