Deep Ravine: Where are They?

[fred]

A question for discussion... probably leading into several questions for discussion.

A number of bodies were found in a ravine below Last Stand Hill. How many? Who were they? Why were they there? How come there is no archaeological evidence of their existence?

One topic; four questions. Any takers?

Best wishes,
Fred.

[tubman13]

To your questions, Fred. The number of bodies, questionable due to haste, wanting to remove wounded and fear of return of warriors. Bodies, probably escapees from LSH. Did they ever really exist, if they did were they dragged back towards LSH and the second team was not aware?

[chris]

Fred, I'll try. 28 bodies, differing accounts. E Company mainly. Remains not found because of fill over time - they could be quite deep. Why there is a good question - I'll go with flight.
Best,
c.

[Beth]

I do think that there were a number of bodies in a ravine after the battle, there seems to be too many accounts to dismiss it how who they are and where they are I am not so sure.

I have to admit I wouldn't blame anyone for not wanting to go down into any ravine full of bodies in advanced decomposition when you can just throw dirt on them from above but where they eventually removed. Could though they have been removed from the ravine during one of the battlefield cleanups?

Personally I feel that the likelihood they were removed to be remote and most likely what didn't get washed away is covered with silt as the ravine eroded and changed with time.

[fred]

Okay... mull this over, then let's debate the number. Who would you pick to be the most definitive?

There were numerous accounts of bodies seen in a deep gully/ravine (Deep Ravine):
• 1SG Ryan (M): 18 or 20 men of E Company. He said 28 bodies at a later date.
• CPT Benteen (H): 22 bodies.
• CPT Moylan (A): 20-odd bodies of E Company.
• LT Godfrey (K): 28 men of Smith’s troop.
• LT Hare (K): 28 bodies of Smith’s troop in a coulee in skirmish order.
• SGT Kanipe (C): rode along the edge of a deep gully and counted 28 bodies in the ravine [Camp].
• LT Richard Thompson (6th Infantry): maybe 34 bodies in a gully [Camp].
• LT Edward Maguire (Engineers): drew a map showing 28 bodies in one particular ravine.
• LT Edward McClernand (2nd Cavalry): 28 bodies of Smith’s troop were found at the lower end of the line in a deep coulee.
• COL John Gibbon (7th Infantry): 40 or 50 bodies were found in a valley running perpendicular to the river.
• LT/Dr. Holmes Paulding: 28 bodies found in a deep ravine by the scouts.
• Lone Man (Oglala): 28
• Walter Camp interviewed two Sioux warriors, Good Voiced Elk (Hunkpapa), who claimed 25 to 30 died in a gully; and He Dog (Oglala) who corroborated the number of 28. Of course, one would like to know how he arrived at this precise figure.


Best wishes,
Fred.

[Beth]

To me it always depends on when those numbers were given. The further you go from the event the more some stories get the same but not necessarily more reliable. I am unsure how so many come up with 28 and why they are sure it was E company. Where these bodies unstripped or did E company have different uniforms.

I think it's safe to elimination Gibbon because it's so different from everyone else's report

[tubman13]

I would go with Hare. Fred have you read Luther's biography?

[Beth]

May 16, 2015 19:04:41 GMT -6 tubman13 said:

I would go with Hare. Fred have you read Luther's biography?

what would Hare mean by in skirmish order?  The bodies were spaced evenly?  If so does that reflect the markers that go from LSH to the ravine, I believe its called South skirmish line?  The south skirmish line doesn't fit the description of being able to just bring the sides of the ravine down to cover the bodies though,

[dave]

I have only been to the battlefield 1 time for a couple of hours so I don't know which ravine they might be in. I would suppose that 1 would need to know about geography, the weathering factors of that part of Montana and book knowledge. I plan to study all responses and learn.

To answer your question I would go with Benteen because he seems to be the one who had the best grip on things during the conflict. Plus it would pi** Rini off and that is a good thing.
Regards
Dave

[fred]

To me, while the others are fine, the most definitive would be Dr. Paulding-- for obvious reasons-- then LT Maguire. It was Maguire's job to record these things, including the approximate length of Reno's valley skirmish line. The Hare, Godfrey, and Benteen corroborations are great, but I like Pauling's the best.

It is late and I just finished watching the magnificent mystery series, Midsomer Murders, so I will add another nickel's worth tomorrow.

Best wishes,
Fred.

[Beth]

The ravine is a huge drainage feature on the Battlefield. I imagine every time they get a rain, especially what I would call a gully washer, the water would come ripping through it like a spillway dam in a flood. I just read a reference to a rain in 1877 that washed bodies from the battlefield.

I don't know if anyone else might be interested in this .  Soil Report for Little Bighorn

[Beth]

May 16, 2015 19:55:32 GMT -6 fred said:

To me, while the others are fine, the most definitive would be Dr. Paulding-- for obvious reasons-- then LT Maguire. It was Maguire's job to record these things, including the approximate length of Reno's valley skirmish line. The Hare, Godfrey, and Benteen corroborations are great, but I like Pauling's the best.

It is late and I just finished watching the magnificent mystery series, Midsomer Murders, so I will add another nickel's worth tomorrow.

Best wishes,
Fred.

I love Midsome Murders!  If you haven't seen them and like quirky but good mysteries try the Murdock Mysteries (Also called the Artful Dectective)

[dave]

Fred
Why in the world would you trust a doctor. What does he know about dead bodies!
Good Call
Regards
Dave

[mac]

Really interesting topic!
The drainage patterns are drastically changed by the various construction work, notably the road. Most posters probably realise deep ravine was much shorter in 1876 and deeper. Bodies or remnants are probably deeper, if there. I do not understand the reticence of authorities over archaeology.
Some will remember the Benteen map showing two ravines (Ian may repost?) containing bodies. I hope AZ will kick in on this discussion. Accounts are not that definitive on where/which ravine.
Must go.
Cheers

[fred]

This topic has always interested me. Here are a number of things to ponder:

(1) Because all the bodies were identified as being from E Company-- or at least probably all-- that tells me it was a planned, if desperate move. Remember, however, most or many of the E Company horses were run off when they were on Cemetery Ridge, just before moving to Last Stand Hill. This ties in Indian accounts of the running-off and the fact the E Company move off LSH has done with only a couple riders, most of the men on foot.

(2) Because of that and the distances involved, plus the heat, the uniforms, heavy boots, etc., and a very little known small ridge on the SSL between the head of the ravine and LSH, it was truly a desperate move. Little choice, however, if any.

(3) Something virtually everyone forgets or does not know about: the ravine's head-cut was a good 50 to 100 yards closer to the river in 1876 than it is today. That means the archaeologists-- in 1984-1985-- were looking in the wrong place for the bodies. Two years ago, when I asked Dr. Scott why they just didn't begin looking lower down the ravine, he gave me the standard, universal, and very acceptable answer: lack of $$$$$$$$.

(4) With the head-cut lower down, that makes John Stands In Timber's Cheyenne legends accounts more viable.

(5) It would also explain tired men running out of steam and being forced into a convenient killing ground like a ravine: trapped, no escape.

Best wishes,
Fred.