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Post by fred on May 26, 2015 14:46:02 GMT -6
Hey you guys... did we establish a separate thread for this "Reno" business or has it all been done by PM?
34,000 and counting... with enough digressions to fill a swimming pool.
Suddenly the implications of Tullock's loom larger and larger, even more than I thought originally. Very, very interesting stuff... and I am finally using the full brunt of one of my serious research documents.
Steer me in the right direction please...
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by quincannon on May 26, 2015 15:09:15 GMT -6
Will of course concepts matter. All I am trying to do here is say that the word pause, as it has come down to us, does not convey the proper meaning. A pause in a football game is a time out. That is our interpretation of the word, and what I am saying is the person who used that word pause, had no such meaning in mind or intent to convey to us that this was a pause, a time out, where nothing was taking place. Something was taking place, and the use of the word pause leads us off into tangents of girl watching, nose picking, ass scratching, and even toward such tangents that might have been necessary, but that do not justify a halt or pause, such as a treatment of wounded.
The man stopped one company in a bad position, deployed them as skirmishers, allowed their horses to be "secured" in a visible, and vulnerable position, and then sashayed off with another company splitting the whole once again.
So don't feel like the Lone Ranger brother I question his decisions as well.
How do we know the threat was insignificant when he stopped. Ian pointed out just today those Indians moving up Deep Ravine toward Keogh. That was a significant threat to the force as a whole, even if it had not been of immediate threat to the Yates detachment-battalion-boys club-bowling team.
We must assume he had a reason for what he did as seen through his eyes. It does not matter then how incorrect his solution was, as long as we all understand it was incorrect.
Beth RAP = Regimental attack position. The regimental gives and indication of the size of area that is required. Other descriptive terms such as battalion, company, platoon, only refer to the size of area required. An attack position is the last position occupied or sometimes passed through, where a unit performs its final pre-combat checks, before it crosses the line of departure, that line on the ground where everything out in front of you has a mind to kill you.
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Post by quincannon on May 26, 2015 15:10:18 GMT -6
Valley Fred.
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Post by montrose on May 26, 2015 15:48:18 GMT -6
Fred we have the attention span of a fruit fly, which has a 24 hour life span.
If you have a question on the valley, ask, and we will focus. For a bit.
Will
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Post by montrose on May 26, 2015 15:55:07 GMT -6
I see members of this forum who have logged on recently, who I do not know. Some of them have been members for years.
So say hello, tell QC to bugger off, offer an opinion.
This board needs a wider discussion,
The worst that can happen is we can say you have an infantry mindset. My CIB has one star on it, not so bad.
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Post by quincannon on May 26, 2015 16:02:20 GMT -6
Beth: You mentioned above that we kinda disagree. Don't think so.
Emotional stress is a very serious issue and always has been. You need only watch the movie 12 O'clock High with Peck to see how unrelenting pressure in positions of great responsibility bring down even the most competent of commanders. For two generations the film was shown at West Point, and maybe still is. Just don't know. The book by Bernie Lay was even better, and was based upon some unidentified war time experience.
The problem is sometimes this becomes very apparent, and at others not so much. When does emotional stress cause stupid, and when does stupid cause stupid? In the sandbox we are playing in today, it is fairly apparent that stupid caused stupid.
If you have not seen the movie, it is highly recommended. So is the book if you can find a copy.
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Post by quincannon on May 26, 2015 16:05:59 GMT -6
Actually Will I was going to say the same thing, except mine was tell Montrose to bugger off.
How about we compromise and both tell WO to bugger off, as he has not been here today to defend himself, and anyway we know he does have an Infantry (note the capital I you SF miscreant) mindset.
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Post by montrose on May 26, 2015 16:12:50 GMT -6
First rule of the Internet.
It is all about me.
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Post by quincannon on May 26, 2015 16:16:42 GMT -6
Seriously now, do we understand each others point of view on pause?
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Post by montrose on May 26, 2015 16:22:35 GMT -6
Chuck, I do not think it is a word game. Concepts matter. Let's say GAC stopped his element due to enemy vicinity cemetery ridge. So how many, 20? He abandoned Reno facing 1200 plus. And a decision to stop facing an insignificant threat shows another factor. He was acting like a company commander. Not like a BN commander, not like a regimental commander. Cemetery Ridge was not critical terrain, nor was it relevant to the regimental battle. At what point does a regimental commander need to know he needs contact with more than one sixth of his command? How ever many Indians GAC saw vicinity Cemetery Ridge, he had abandoned Reno in the valley facing more. I question his decisions. I am curious, and perhaps this is something you have answered before or maybe better for a different thread. What points of the battle really for a lack of better words 'trigger your spidy senses' as this is just not right? I will ask the same of any of the other military people on the board. What points in the battle raise the most alarms as to what the heck was he thinking and why? Beth I need to think a bit, Poke or PM me if I do not answer by Friday.
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Post by mac on May 26, 2015 16:25:34 GMT -6
The thought occurs to me that Custer had gone further and maybe faster, than anybody else. What if he reached Cemmetery and enough of his horses were "played out" that he had to stop to keep together? Gotta go! William you are killing me! LOL Cheers
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Post by Beth on May 26, 2015 16:26:29 GMT -6
Beth: You mentioned above that we kinda disagree. Don't think so. Emotional stress is a very serious issue and always has been. You need only watch the movie 12 O'clock High with Peck to see how unrelenting pressure in positions of great responsibility bring down even the most competent of commanders. For two generations the film was shown at West Point, and maybe still is. Just don't know. The book by Bernie Lay was even better, and was based upon some unidentified war time experience. The problem is sometimes this becomes very apparent, and at others not so much. When does emotional stress cause stupid, and when does stupid cause stupid? In the sandbox we are playing in today, it is fairly apparent that stupid caused stupid. If you have not seen the movie, it is highly recommended. So is the book if you can find a copy. I had to make a quick check to see if that was the movie with the Toby jug. I'm good with remembering movies, terrible with the titles. Excellent movie, thanks for reminding me of it. Daughter 1 loves old movies and I put it on the list of recommendations I keep for her. I go back and forth all the time on Custer, was he the wrong man for the job or just totally blinded by the situation he was in. He did some really stupid things that day that's for sure and then kept compounding the mistakes but why? What did or didn't he see?
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Post by quincannon on May 26, 2015 16:42:15 GMT -6
Mac Possible. But then he saunters off a way with F, so that mitigates against the tired and need a rest theory.
Those horses were probably bone tired, hot, and thirsty, which is another strike against the golden boy. Combat readiness does not only mean the man, but also the means.
Beth: It was the movie with the Toby jug, a great cast, and a sterling performance by both Peck and Jaeger.
Custer was the right man for the job he was given in 1863, to infuse life and spirit into a cavalry arms that had grown green with mold, and stale by misuse. He was the wrong man for any job that involved thinking above the level of a giddy teenager in heat.
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Post by welshofficer on May 26, 2015 18:34:48 GMT -6
QC/Montrose,
As I have said previously, "pause" is a dangerous word to use because it means different things to different people....
Better to focus on what in all probability caused GAC to deploy in the cemetery area rather than backtracking all the way to his other (Keogh) battalion....
East of the pond, and buggering off.....
WO
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Post by quincannon on May 26, 2015 19:16:57 GMT -6
Just talked to Fred on the phone and mentioned this pause. He puts the time involved at from 1554 to 1609, and then listed for me all the activity taking place between those times in this sector the primary being addressing those mass of Indians coming out of the Ford C access into Deep Ravine heading for Keogh which in effect split Yates and Keogh.
1609 is when Fred starts his movement back toward LSH. So between 1554 arrival on Cemetery Ridge to 1609 starting movement to LSH (by force mind you) does not sound like any PAUSE I ever heard of, unless pause means you are fighting to prevent the two battalions from being split, leading to fighting for your own life, neither of which were accomplished.
Anyone who has Fred book care to verify this as it does not hurt to check my notes hastily written down
I pursue this to put to bed once in for all that Custer and his nearest and dearest were playing grab ass for twenty minutes on top of Cemetery Ridge after returning from Ford D, as idiots like Philbrick with his girl watching would have you believe. Pause to JSIT meant something completely different than it does to most of us today.
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