The Russians loved their horses too.

[Yan Taylor]

Just a bit of fun, I was reading about the Russian army yesterday and what struck me was the problems that cavalry in 1876 had concerning one man in every set of four being a horse holder, was still prevalent in 1936, here is a modern Russian cavalry platoon;

Soviet Cavalry Platoon circa 1936;

Platoon HQ
Lieutenant
Corporal (in charge of horses)
Private/Observer-Signalman
Private/Runner
2 x Privates/Horse holders

Two Mounted Sections each Containing;
6 x Man Light Machine Gun Squad
6 x Man Grenadier Squad

When fighting on foot the horse corporal and ten men were left behind to tend to the horses, that 11 men out of 30 who are kept out of any action due to keeping tabs on their mounts.

So things didn’t really change much in 60 years.

Ian.

[Jenny]

Speaking of which (clever way to revive the topic after 8 years) is there a list of known horse holders on the day of the LBH battle?

Jenny

[Yan Taylor]

I have never come across any troopers who were designated horse holders.
The way the US cavalry formed was in sets of fours, in battle one man out of the set held the four horses with a special leather strap which kept them all together.
One trooper would have to store this strap in his saddle so one of them must have been chosen for the task.

Ian

[noggy]

Jenny:

I agree with Ian here, I doubt the roles as horse holders were so "formalized". The closest you'd come, is that some NCO/someone else were responsible for picking out the holders, a Company commander would have bigger things to deal with.

Noggy

[herosrest]

^Ducemus

William O. Taylor (flourished by Bruce Brown) link fought the good fight, held horses, seems to have been reasonably together and although I can't dig it out, he left a map of the valley fight which was on file with Kortlander at the Garryowen 'Elizabeth B. Custer' collection. It's a very informative account of the shoot and scoot valley deployment which got 7th Cavalry's right wing cut off downriver and then abandoned to their fate, when Benteen unsaddled his battalion on Reno Hill, showing clear and present intent to the adversary.

Taylor was discharged from the Army in January of 1877 at Fort Rice, Dakota Territory. After his discharge, he moved to Orange, Massachusetts. He spent the next thirty years working as a metal polisher at the New Home Sewing Machine Company. He collected voluminous materials on the battle, and eventually wrote a manuscript about his experiences that he entitled.

My own study of Taylor's life found him to have kicked his heels along the Yellowstone after his discharge from 7th Cavalry, and for example, spent some time at the small landing named 'Huntley' where military supplies were unloaded and freighted or shipped by steamer along the Bighorn to Post N^o. 2 then under construction at the mouth of the Little Bighorn. At that time, supplies were pouring down the Yellowstone with the fiscal provision in place for the two forts which Sheridan and Sherman had long urged. Many boats were wrecked on the river by snags, current and the Oscella was simply demolished midstream by a twister. Te John D Wrankin broke down and foundered. Many boats, to this day, lay rotting in the river mud of shifting meanders. The early history's (books) of that region are fascinating insights which detail in some detail, the lives of those scratching a living in the tiny but growing settlements.

WorldCat Index

With Custer.....

A topicdiscussion of W.O. Taylor.

I stumbled into the Huntley open ditches after realising how important it was to what went on and how things developed - The Huntley Project. A frontier town on the edge. They had a sheriff of minor note...... hmmm..... name was.... drat. On the hunt......... Was it M^cCormick?

Taylor's Papers 1872-1890. Reno passed away on March 30, 1889. Taylor died in 1923 at 68 years old. "With Custer on the Little Big Horn." was completed in 1917, but published in 1996 by Viking Press. It was a brilliant 'find'. Rather special and rather even very special. Now, Taylor may have been the 'Boston Strangler' but no evidence for this ever came to light and thus we can only suppose. There is considerably greater wealth of evidence concerning Reno on Greasy Grass and it really is one of the 'go figure' string pulling things. What? This battle is so muderously family, it defies credence Here's Mary

Here is the Fortunate Son. The Dropkick's did an outstanding cover of this 'Rebel' song - link.

Here's the tin of paint - sevens and nines.

Charge.........! (Lots) Sixty bucks?

[herosrest]

^Ducemus

There is a very worthwhile read HERe giving bleeding edge assessment of a lot of little known info from the remarkable hunt by a board member, which ultimately showed that even the beaver allied with Sitting Bull, that day. However, that does not mean Custer's command did not blow its bugles (trumpets if you prefer) on and west and north of Medicine Tail Creek. Numerous instance amongst tribal accounts tell ofthe band playing. This is both in first hand record and that handed to, and passed on, by tribal Elders including a Cheyenne Chief who knew Yellow Nose very well and discussed the battle with his blind friend. That was Chapman, One of Fourty Four, during the Vietnam era.

Two Moons told us that the Bugler (Custer's) was very brave and played to the end. Assuming it was not a serenade then possibly 'rally' (here) played long, loud and hard from Calhoun Hill, Keogh's Swale, Smith's Hill and the ravine below the westernmost hill occupied by soldiers. Give 'em Hell, boys. ^♭ B^{♯'s all the way............}

[Yan Taylor]

HR, have you chosen the right thread for your posts?

While you are here, was there a rank below corporal in the US Cavalry circa 1876?
I know the single strippers were considered "private first class" but did they have this rank then?

Ian

[Yan Taylor]

This short 10 min clip shows a set of fours dismounting with designated horse holder link

[Jenny]

As with all other posts/questions I've learned more here than I expected! Thanks.

J

[Jenny]

Jul 8, 2023 12:42:12 GMT -6 Yan Taylor said:

This short 10 min clip shows a set of fours dismounting with designated horse holder link

This has a creepy quality to it, doesn't it? Thanks. It was no 2 second thing to get off a horse and make sure it was tethered and held in a proper way.

J

[Jenny]

Jul 8, 2023 2:27:31 GMT -6 Yan Taylor said:

I have never come across any troopers who were designated horse holders.
The way the US cavalry formed was in sets of fours, in battle one man out of the set held the four horses with a special leather strap which kept them all together.
One trooper would have to store this strap in his saddle so one of them must have been chosen for the task.

Ian

And I see per Herosrest post on William O. Taylor that the troops simply counted off, every fourth man being the holder. No doubt ones who didn't want to do it jockeyed for position, hoping they'd counted right and weren't the fourth man. I'd heard or read somewhere that the Indians focused on hitting horse holders, but that seems silly if you could kill a soldier right in front of you instead?

J

[herosrest]

^Ducemus

Ian, sorry I missed your rank question. I don't know. Fred would have lapped it up.

Jenny. The horse holders were defenceless whilst 'holding reins of four horses. Hostile Indians would simply ride up and bash them senseless with quirts. In the open, the led horse-holders were easy meat and targeted at LBH. It really is that simple. Those able to take cover in timber and under cut banks were in a better defensive position but had to be able to march or deliver the horses as ordered, at drop of a hat. In Grinnell's Fighting Cheyennes chapter on Crook's battle, many of the cavalry's casualties seem to have happened when about facing to fall back on the led mounts. White Shield tells of charging after troops falling back to mount.

I suspect that the US Cavalry fours rotated horse holding duty on a daily basis, after breakfast and that that could be done to suit themselves as long as the NCO's approved and didn't assign other duty, that day. Everything US Military is practical and ad-hoc. It works if the nco's are up to the job.

Ian. The bugle call post was for interpretation by members. Held mounts were usually moved to the rear or under cover, and one way of giving them orders was by trumpet in action or emergency. That didn't happen in the valley where the companies fell back on the held mounts but we really have no clues as to how things went down downriver east of the water, other than action against the horse holders told of by their atagonists.

One of the stories (with map) which I struggled with for quite a while, was Minnieconjou Lazy White Bull, and his seven kills, who was riding around bunches of soldiers. They were horse holders and eventually he charged into them. Taking that into a flight of fancy, Keogh orders mount, his company fall back on the horses and the Indians charge the horse holders which stampedes the animals into heir riders - game over and the sort of minor detail which eluded Indian combattants. The Indian style of warfare was perfect for taking out horse holders whether mounted holding reins and bashed on the head; or on foot and simply ridden over - splat.