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Post by Yan Taylor on Feb 7, 2015 13:22:18 GMT -6
I choose the three Captains because of commission, they had received the rank first, so I would expect them to be accomplished enough to be battalion commanders, it would look odd to have French in charge of a battalion with Benteen as one of his company commanders.
Ian.
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shaw
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Post by shaw on Feb 7, 2015 13:24:53 GMT -6
It never occurred to Custer to give his brother Tom one of the battalions or an independent command. I'm not saying Tom wanted that, but it would have been a rare show of confidence to have Tom handling Benteen's role or even Reno's role. It never seemed to occur to Custer that he needed motivated, LOYAL commanders of the independent battalions. Instead, he pushed Reno and Benteen (particularly the latter) away from his "friends and family" battalion thus insuring that his control over those wings was minimal at best. Of course the NA's were going to run away so no wonder it never occurred to him. I would have kept Benteen and Reno close and had Tom and maybe Keogh handling the independent stuff. One wonders if that would have changed what happened for better or worse.
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Post by quincannon on Feb 7, 2015 13:37:14 GMT -6
Being awarded two Medals of Honor does not qualify you to command. I would not let Tom Custer anywhere near a battalion command. It may sound crass, and disrespectful, but capturing two stands of colors does not take the place of leadership, maturity, and tactical proficiency.
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Post by Beth on Feb 7, 2015 14:43:23 GMT -6
Being awarded two Medals of Honor does not qualify you to command. I would not let Tom Custer anywhere near a battalion command. It may sound crass, and disrespectful, but capturing two stands of colors does not take the place of leadership, maturity, and tactical proficiency. Isn't the MOH solely based on bravery? I've personally always had the imagine that Tom was always a just big brother's trusted companion and someone he could be not the General with. Am I being unfair? I am always torn between the modern imagine of the MOH and the Civil War. I understand the importance of capturing or protecting colors on a battlefield where they were so important but it's hard to it to the modern awares. By today's standards would Tom have recieved a MOH or would he get a different medal. Beth
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shaw
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Post by shaw on Feb 7, 2015 14:49:40 GMT -6
Okay. How about Keogh and Yates (or any of the other captains?) My goal is to keep Reno and Benteen close by.
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Post by chris on Feb 7, 2015 15:06:51 GMT -6
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Post by tubman13 on Feb 7, 2015 15:18:04 GMT -6
Okay. How about Keogh and Yates (or any of the other captains?) My goal is to keep Reno and Benteen close by. Shaw, just an honest opinion on my part, Benteen, MacDougall, and Yates were his best officers. I posted some stuff about the O. corps back in the fall, it was as accurate as I could get.
Regards, Tom
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Post by quincannon on Feb 7, 2015 15:33:16 GMT -6
Shaw: I don't think Keogh qualified to pour pee from a boot. Another apparently brave man, but bravery is expected, while competence,and maturity of judgment are what is called for when one assumes command at that level.
I have no problem with Yates. I think if you wanted to dive deep, Calhoun could have pulled it off.
MacDougal, Benteen, and Yates were the only Captains qualified to make the starting lineup in my estimation.
A moment on maturity of judgment. Task organization is not a matter of last one in is a rotten egg. When you on two occasions have one of your best guarding the pack train, Benteen at Washita, and MacDougal at LBH, I would think that a reflection upon the judgment of the commander. Wouldn't you?
Beth: The phrase is Gallantry above and beyond the call of duty. There is no modern equivalent to capturing colors. It was important in the day, just as Sharpe capturing the French Eagle was important in the Cornwell novels. So it is hard to say. Ninety percent of the people that deserve the award of the Medal go unrecognized, as the words on the Marine Memorial say "Uncommon Valor Was A Common Virtue" Unlike DC and a few others I recognize the systemic flaws in the award while still honoring the legend.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2015 15:49:50 GMT -6
Shaw: I don't think Keogh qualified to pour pee from a boot. Another apparently brave man, but bravery is expected, while competence,and maturity of judgment are what is called for when one assumes command at that level. I have no problem with Yates. I think if you wanted to dive deep, Calhoun could have pulled it off. MacDougal, Benteen, and Yates were the only Captains qualified to make the starting lineup in my estimation. A moment on maturity of judgment. Task organization is not a matter of last one in is a rotten egg. When you on two occasions have one of your best guarding the pack train, Benteen at Washita, and MacDougal at LBH, I would think that a reflection upon the judgment of the commander. Wouldn't you? Beth: The phrase is Gallantry above and beyond the call of duty. There is no modern equivalent to capturing colors. It was important in the day, just as Sharpe capturing the French Eagle was important in the Cornwell novels. So it is hard to say. Ninety percent of the people that deserve the award of the Medal go unrecognized, as the words on the Marine Memorial say "Uncommon Valor Was A Common Virtue" Unlike DC and a few others I recognize the systemic flaws in the award while still honoring the legend. Don't you think you're being a little harsh on Keogh? By all accounts he was an excellent officer, had an excellent record, and was held in high regard by fellow officers and men. For someone who is quick to take exception when the qualities and character of an officer is questioned, you do throw it around yourself quite a bit.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Feb 7, 2015 15:53:26 GMT -6
Okay. How about Keogh and Yates (or any of the other captains?) My goal is to keep Reno and Benteen close by. Shaw, Your goal is achieved and GAC keeps Benteen and Reno close. Yates has taken the recon command and headed left and Keogh is ordered to cross Ford A and charge. How do things develop from here? Just curious on how you think it would have played differently.
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Post by Beth on Feb 7, 2015 16:01:45 GMT -6
Shaw: I don't think Keogh qualified to pour pee from a boot. Another apparently brave man, but bravery is expected, while competence,and maturity of judgment are what is called for when one assumes command at that level. I have no problem with Yates. I think if you wanted to dive deep, Calhoun could have pulled it off. MacDougal, Benteen, and Yates were the only Captains qualified to make the starting lineup in my estimation. A moment on maturity of judgment. Task organization is not a matter of last one in is a rotten egg. When you on two occasions have one of your best guarding the pack train, Benteen at Washita, and MacDougal at LBH, I would think that a reflection upon the judgment of the commander. Wouldn't you? Beth: The phrase is Gallantry above and beyond the call of duty. There is no modern equivalent to capturing colors. It was important in the day, just as Sharpe capturing the French Eagle was important in the Cornwell novels. So it is hard to say. Ninety percent of the people that deserve the award of the Medal go unrecognized, as the words on the Marine Memorial say "Uncommon Valor Was A Common Virtue" Unlike DC and a few others I recognize the systemic flaws in the award while still honoring the legend. There is no doubt in my mind hat Tom Custer wasn't brave, but maybe it's my own caustious nature that I can see where bravery sometimes can sometimes cross to foolhardy. I don't thing I would want to be serving under someone who was foolhardy. I wonder if today we would view both of the Custer brothers--perhaps all of them as adrenaline junkies. Beth
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Post by chris on Feb 7, 2015 16:16:20 GMT -6
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Post by welshofficer on Feb 7, 2015 16:21:36 GMT -6
It was strict order of seniority. The more interesting question would be the chain of command with the two detached majors actually on campaign with the 7th cavalry (Merrill and Tilford).
WO
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Post by tubman13 on Feb 7, 2015 16:27:22 GMT -6
Okay. How about Keogh and Yates (or any of the other captains?) My goal is to keep Reno and Benteen close by. Shaw, Your goal is achieved and GAC keeps Benteen and Reno close. Yates has taken the recon command and headed left and Keogh is ordered to cross Ford A and charge. How do things develop from here? Just curious on how you think it would have played differently. If Yates was as much Custer's boy as you think and would have followed his orders to the letter of the law he would have continued over hill and dale looking for something to pitch into until he ran into the Big Horn Mountains. On his way back he might have pitched into the moving village. Keogh also if Custer's boy would have followed Custer's orders to the letter of the law, would have died in the village, if he could have gotten that far, his entire flank would have been enveloped. By the way do some reading about Keogh's drinking, he could drink Reno under the table. Fact! And I like Keogh, brave man who followed orders to death.
Regards, Tom
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Post by quincannon on Feb 7, 2015 16:29:29 GMT -6
Scarface: It is not a matter of character. I think if you re-read my first line it was about being qualified. You can be of perfectly good character and be an exceptional company commander and still not be qualified to be a battalion commander, and battalion command is the subject presently on the table.
The janitor in your building, and the senior clerk in your company may be exceptional at their jobs and of good character, but are they qualified to do your job.
The three I mentioned, MacDougal, Benteen, and Yates, were qualified, by maturity of judgment, demonstrated competence, and experience. Keogh was not, and the non-results of his sector of battle ridge point to that fact.
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