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Post by fred on Feb 27, 2015 16:43:41 GMT -6
Dave, If I understand correctly "the gap" in Keogh's sector was about 100 yards and he was holding the sector with 61 troops (page 157). It is hard to measure with any certainly the length of the gap, but I will spot you 50 to 100 yards. Keogh, however, had only 36 men in Company I, not 61. It is also impossible to say when he realized what he was confronted with. By the time Crazy Horse reached the Deep Ravine head-cut, C Company was already in serious trouble and I am sure Keogh would have been running between the two problems. Calhoun was having issues of his own and things were really-- at this stage-- becoming unglued. Absolutely, he could have. Picture this, however... and eliminate the word "strategic"; it doe not apply here. I mention in the book that military operations generally adhere to three principles: logic, simplicity, and flow. This is a perfect example of flow. Crazy Horse has crossed the river and is heading up a ravine... covered... it's deep. As he approaches the end, the head-cut, he mounts it and sees a perfect "highway" into the troops' position: a gap. Why would he deviate from that route? It is easier, faster, and a perfect road to his target. On the other side, Keogh had to have recognized it and therefore he had to defend it. And all of this is happening in something like breakneck speed. No one took his time... bullets and arrows were flying... and men were dying, one ravine over. It had to be close to mayhem and Keogh had to be trying to plug that gap, fill that hole with as many men as he could, pouring as much fire into it as he could. The Indians had to have been aware of that, had to be riding low... and very fast: 900 pounds of horseflesh, topped by someone hellbent to kill someone else. I would certainly think Horse could have gone over Battle Ridge any place he desired; but why, when he had an arrow-shot right into the troops' heart? Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by chris on Feb 27, 2015 16:58:22 GMT -6
This is a perfect example of flow. Crazy Horse has crossed the river and is heading up a ravine... covered... it's deep. As he approaches the end, the head-cut, he mounts it and sees a perfect "highway" into the troops' position: a gap. Why would he deviate from that route? It is easier, faster, and a perfect road to his target. Seems obvious to me - shortest route CH had between 2 points. Best, c.
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Post by dave on Feb 27, 2015 17:29:40 GMT -6
Fred I believe Keogh must have felt like the guy who stepped on a fire ant mound. Regards Dave
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Post by tubman13 on Feb 27, 2015 17:43:23 GMT -6
Been there done that! Very nasty!
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Post by Yan Taylor on Feb 28, 2015 6:47:42 GMT -6
Now I may be talking gibberish here, but why did Custer have to leave Keogh behind in the first place, let’s face it if it was for Benteen’s benefit then the good Captain would have already followed Custer’s trail over hill, coulee and ravine without coming in contact with him so what would the significance of Calhoun hill, he could have left a detail at Weir point to bring in Benteen or left him to continue following his trail to northern end of the village. It looks to me he left Keogh hanging tough up on the high ground hoping that the warriors wouldn’t dare try to knock him off and this could have been down to the notion that all he thought would happen was that the Indians would block any crossing and not go on the offensive and the only effect this caused was to draw every Indian in range, which may not have been an issue if they all passed out of sight, thus leaving the trail open to Benteen. But Custer had seen how big this place was and I would imagine saw how large the pony herd was, so to me any good commander should have judged the village size and the size of the pony herd and put the two together and come up with one hell of a lot of mounted warriors.
Ian.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2015 7:48:17 GMT -6
Now I may be talking gibberish here, but why did Custer have to leave Keogh behind in the first place, let’s face it if it was for Benteen’s benefit then the good Captain would have already followed Custer’s trail over hill, coulee and ravine without coming in contact with him so what would the significance of Calhoun hill, he could have left a detail at Weir point to bring in Benteen or left him to continue following his trail to northern end of the village. It looks to me he left Keogh hanging tough up on the high ground hoping that the warriors wouldn’t dare try to knock him off and this could have been down to the notion that all he thought would happen was that the Indians would block any crossing and not go on the offensive and the only effect this caused was to draw every Indian in range, which may not have been an issue if they all passed out of sight, thus leaving the trail open to Benteen. But Custer had seen how big this place was and I would imagine saw how large the pony herd was, so to me any good commander should have judged the village size and the size of the pony herd and put the two together and come up with one hell of a lot of mounted warriors. Ian. I don't think in GAC's mind he was leaving Keogh behind. There was no immediate danger, no massing Indians that concerned them at that point in time. Keogh holds the high ground waiting for Benteen and watching GAC rear. GAC heads north to further scout a fording spot. Believe he had every intention of either pulling Keogh/Benteen forward or returning to join them in relatively quick time.
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Post by tubman13 on Feb 28, 2015 7:52:22 GMT -6
Ian, How about he leaves Keogh to draw warriors to that area so he could conduct whatever he wanted up north, unmolested. We see that he was willing to leave Reno hanging out without support. If Benteen shows up great, if not Keogh performs the task as stalking horse.
Regards, Tom
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Post by Deleted on Feb 28, 2015 8:38:11 GMT -6
Ian, How about he leaves Keogh to draw warriors to that area so he could conduct whatever he wanted up north, unmolested. We see that he was willing to leave Reno hanging out without support. If Benteen shows up great, if not Keogh performs the task as stalking horse. Regards, Tom Or is he employing the same approach he did at Ford B? One company attempts to ford while reminder held back at save distance to be brought forward when ford has been secured.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Feb 28, 2015 12:10:18 GMT -6
I don’t know, but to me drawing the enemy across your line of communication (well that could be an exaggeration, but it was the direction of approach for any re-enforcements) would be a bad move, as you are in fact closing the door on yourself, Custer may have been under the illusion that the Indians would keep to the west bank, but as I said earlier the sheer size of the village and the huge pony herd would certainly mean that he was facing a lot more fighting men that he had troopers so why would they keep their distance.
Ian.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 1, 2015 7:12:24 GMT -6
I think one of the problems with using hindsight on what to do is that you know whatever you select the outcome is at the worst equal to what happened to Custer. When we debrief we look at what we could do better. I don't think our debriefings would get past Reno Creek and Custer's separation from Reno.
AZ Ranger
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Post by dave on Mar 13, 2015 15:32:13 GMT -6
Fred
I wanted to share with you and others my honest assessment of The Strategy of Defeat at the Little Big Horn.
I have spent years studying the Battle of Shiloh and how the geography of the field impacted the outcome of the fight. I have walked the park from one end to another many times and marveled at the difficulty the soldiers had fighting over such ground.
I have been to the Little Bighorn park only one time and that was in 2004 with my family dragging behind me. I have read for years how DC has described the ground as “God awful” but it has begun to click for me after going through your tome several times. I followed Montrose’s advice and read and read the notes and studied the time lines.
I have a much better concept of the terrain and how it dictated the actions of the 7th. Custer continually bled troops looking for the “North West Passage” to determine the extent of the indian village. I have seen photos of the field but reading has a more lasting impact for me. Using the time lines established for me the difficulty Benteen had in determining where to go, how fast and the need for water.
AZ has written and posted many photos and when applied to your time lines and text it just clicked for me.
Congratulations for your splendid work!
Regards
Dave
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Post by fred on Mar 14, 2015 7:08:08 GMT -6
Thanks, Dave. Coming from someone like you, with your background, comments like those mean a lot.
Very best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2015 11:51:24 GMT -6
Fred, I'll be at the Battlefield for the next 4 days and I wanted you to know that I downloaded your book as a little "light" reading while I'm there! Please don't hesitate to ask if there's anything I can do for you while I'm there. regards, LBM
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Post by fred on Apr 23, 2015 14:01:32 GMT -6
Fred, I'll be at the Battlefield for the next 4 days and I wanted you to know that I downloaded your book as a little "light" reading while I'm there! Please don't hesitate to ask if there's anything I can do for you while I'm there. regards, LBM Pete, I appreciate that immensely... especially since I treated you so shabbily in the past. I hope you enjoy the book, but I must warn you the timelines are extremely important and are very difficult to follow on a tablet or computer. It takes about a dozen bookmarks!!!!! I would be very interested to know if the book is at the bookstore. The publisher-- in my opinion-- has done an extremely poor job in the past in marketing my work and this is the second one they have published for me: the Participants book never made it into the bookstore, and I just wonder about this one. So far, I have seen only one review outside of the booksellers like B&N and Amazon, and I was delighted with it, especially since it was by a military organization. So I am just curious to see if McFarland is doing its job. So, again, thank you, and please accept my apologies for our past. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 23, 2015 14:29:46 GMT -6
Fred, I'll be at the Battlefield for the next 4 days and I wanted you to know that I downloaded your book as a little "light" reading while I'm there! Please don't hesitate to ask if there's anything I can do for you while I'm there. regards, LBM Pete, I appreciate that immensely... especially since I treated you so shabbily in the past. I hope you enjoy the book, but I must warn you the timelines are extremely important and are very difficult to follow on a tablet or computer. It takes about a dozen bookmarks!!!!! I would be very interested to know if the book is at the bookstore. The publisher-- in my opinion-- has done an extremely poor job in the past in marketing my work and this is the second one they have published for me: the Participants book never made it into the bookstore, and I just wonder about this one. So far, I have seen only one review outside of the booksellers like B&N and Amazon, and I was delighted with it, especially since it was by a military organization. So I am just curious to see if McFarland is doing its job. So, again, thank you, and please accept my apologies for our past. Best wishes, Fred. Fred, It takes two to tango and I'm sorry about my own silliness. I know that you are a kind-hearted man. I'll definitely ask about your books, both at the visitor's center and at the Trading Post where I also didn't see them the last time I was there. McF seems to be missing out here. Donovan's book sells like hot cakes. Maybe you can get them to send sample books and see if the Battlefield is interested, I can't imagine they wouldn't be. Kind Regards, Pete
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