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Post by quincannon on Mar 24, 2015 5:01:13 GMT -6
WO: I was thinking more of Martini showing up either with or without his ten escorts. The Madam is still asleep but when she wakes I will be sure to ask her what the Italian is for ---- You have got to be nuts if you think I am going to go down there to deliver your damned message.
Mac: We talked early on about how easy it would be to approach the south end of battle ridge and get between fifty and a hundred meters away without detection. That would be especially true for someone skilled in field craft. That then is no place to defend, made especially true by the fact there are so many of those places. Were there just one or two, it might be manageable, but when you have those combined with the more high speed avenues, which will garner most of your attention, the position has some real issues. Like I remarked above complicated terrain uses up resources all to fast, and when those resources are few to begin with, you had better chose carefully or refuse battle there.
Men make these choices and sometimes they chose badly. There is absolutely nothing that says you have to fight here or there, lest the Good Fairy will not shine brightly upon your eternal spirit. If you do not have that ability to chose wisely, the only question that can then be asked is why was that person put in command in the first place. The profession of arms is as unforgiving as that of a surgeon. You are only as good as your last battle or last cut and patch. When you fail no one will remember all the ones that you won, or that you saved.
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 24, 2015 5:07:58 GMT -6
True WO; my point was simply that there were other eyes to see what was happening even if Keogh could not. Perhaps Harrington did of course. I am not sure though that he would act without an order, as you said a junior. I believe Crittenden only had one eye, unfortunate. (Over to you Tom ) Cheers Ok Mac. John Jordan Crittenden, interesting path to a commission. Johnny boy was born into fairly affluent family on June7,1854, in Frankfurt KY. His namesake grandfather was governor of Kentucky, 3 time US Senator, and US Attorney General, His father, Thomas, was a prosperous lawyer, who had served as an aid to Zack Taylor at the Mexican war battle of Buena Vista(Good View, just does not have the same ring), anyway daddy rose to the rank of Major General during the ACW. So as you can see John Jordon Crittenden was a lock to get an appointment to Hudson High in 1871, a classmate of James Sturgis, who also bought the farm at the LBH. While he was a lock to get in the Academy, daddy could not do his school wok for him and he flunked out in 1874. But it pays when daddy has friends in high places, as President Grant was petitioned to get John a commission, and presto John becomes a 2nd Lt. in the 20th Infantry. Dumb can be fatal, but this time it was not, 10 days after commissioning John had an accident with a shotgun shell, which exploded and apiece stuck in his left eye. His eye was removed, at a hospital in Cincinnati. With daddy's influence John was able to resume his military career, on May 7, 1876 he was assigned to the 7th Cavalry, on detached duty. His reunion with Sturgis only lasted about 6 weeks. He and Custer were the only two officers at the LBH who had worst records at West Point than Reno.
Is that enough BS for you Mac? That was a 2 cupper this morning!
Regards, Tom
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Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 24, 2015 6:17:29 GMT -6
I was always inclined to think that Custer was expecting Benteen along with the pack train to appear on LNC, but after I read through data posted by Fred that Cedar was a rough trek then I was sceptical of this event happening, to drag a train full of ill-trained and knackered mules over the bluffs and through Cedar coulee would be a bad idea, Custer had just done the same route so he must have had high expectations in them mules and the packers to actually make this trek.
Plus it would make sense to keep the pack train behind Benteen and Reno, maybe cut out the ammo mules but the full train would be more of a burden than anything else.
But we have two statements given by the two men who got back; Kanipe; TWC said to tell McDougal to bring the pack train straight across to high ground” Martini; “Bring Packs”
Now one may have been an outright lie and the other one a cryptic message, but they have one thing in common, they both elude to the pack train.
Ian.
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Post by montrose on Mar 24, 2015 8:27:53 GMT -6
Crittenden's body was on the left of the line, with Calhoun on the right. Makes sense as the company bent to fill the hole left by C Company routing.
So the jest that he was on the side of his bad eye has merit.
Both officers died on their main line. Indian accounts highlight a fight against a US leader who died hard, in hand to hand combat. These two officers died doing their duty, in the finest performance of any officer in the northern sector.
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Post by fred on Mar 24, 2015 8:31:17 GMT -6
Ian,
I doubt Benteen would have hauled the packs with him down Cedar Coulee. Once he consolidated the train, I doubt he would have moved it again: Benteen, himself, would be moving too quickly to be harnessed with 175 recalcitrant mules. If there had been a chance of moving forward, I would almost believe he would have taken his own battalion, plus French and Moylan, leaving Wallace and the remnants of G back with McDougall, the wounded, and probably Reno. If I were Benteen and I thought I could salvage Custer and his command, that's what I would have done. And once he saw the Weir area, he would have told Reno to go back to the Reno-Benteen defense area, consolidate, set up defenses as best they could, tighten-up, hunker down... and wait.
Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 24, 2015 8:51:44 GMT -6
I agree with Will that both officers in L were the best performers there. We have no way of knowing about Porter, so it can't be said one way or the other. Same is really true of Harrington. If he made a mistake and went down on his own hook, that's an Oh crap, but I think there is a fair chance that he redeemed himself. If he was ordered down there, it presents a completely different picture as to his culpability for what followed.
Benteen was not, was never going to try and break through with packs in tow. That is just silly to even think it a possibility under the circumstances. Fred paints a realistic picture of any decision making process. Think I might have taken McDougal though vice either Moylan or French.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 24, 2015 9:00:32 GMT -6
I agree totally with Fred's description, that's why I said at the beginning of my post that I don't think Benteen could have whipped them mules over that terrain, it is just that many probably think that Custer wanted Benteen to come with the full train to battle ridge and I don't think this was the case, if it was then Custer expected too much out of his pack train and after going over the route himself he should have known this.
Ian.
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Post by mac on Mar 24, 2015 15:14:36 GMT -6
True WO; my point was simply that there were other eyes to see what was happening even if Keogh could not. Perhaps Harrington did of course. I am not sure though that he would act without an order, as you said a junior. I believe Crittenden only had one eye, unfortunate. (Over to you Tom ) Cheers Ok Mac. John Jordan Crittenden, interesting path to a commission. Johnny boy was born into fairly affluent family on June7,1854, in Frankfurt KY. His namesake grandfather was governor of Kentucky, 3 time US Senator, and US Attorney General, His father, Thomas, was a prosperous lawyer, who had served as an aid to Zack Taylor at the Mexican war battle of Buena Vista(Good View, just does not have the same ring), anyway daddy rose to the rank of Major General during the ACW. So as you can see John Jordon Crittenden was a lock to get an appointment to Hudson High in 1871, a classmate of James Sturgis, who also bought the farm at the LBH. While he was a lock to get in the Academy, daddy could not do his school wok for him and he flunked out in 1874. But it pays when daddy has friends in high places, as President Grant was petitioned to get John a commission, and presto John becomes a 2nd Lt. in the 20th Infantry. Dumb can be fatal, but this time it was not, 10 days after commissioning John had an accident with a shotgun shell, which exploded and apiece stuck in his left eye. His eye was removed, at a hospital in Cincinnati. With daddy's influence John was able to resume his military career, on May 7, 1876 he was assigned to the 7th Cavalry, on detached duty. His reunion with Sturgis only lasted about 6 weeks. He and Custer were the only two officers at the LBH who had worst records at West Point than Reno.
Is that enough BS for you Mac? That was a 2 cupper this morning!
Regards, Tom
Magnificent! Cheers
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Post by mac on Mar 24, 2015 15:17:27 GMT -6
Crittenden's body was on the left of the line, with Calhoun on the right. Makes sense as the company bent to fill the whole left by C Company routing. So the jest that he was on the side of his bad eye has merit. Both officers died on their main line. Indian accounts a fight against a US leader who died hard, in hand to hand combat. These two officers died doing their duty, in the finest performance of any officer in the northern sector. Absolutely agree! Highest regard for them! Body positions leave no doubt as to their actions. Cheers
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Post by mac on Mar 24, 2015 15:21:26 GMT -6
I was always inclined to think that Custer was expecting Benteen along with the pack train to appear on LNC, but after I read through data posted by Fred that Cedar was a rough trek then I was sceptical of this event happening, to drag a train full of ill-trained and knackered mules over the bluffs and through Cedar coulee would be a bad idea, Custer had just done the same route so he must have had high expectations in them mules and the packers to actually make this trek. Plus it would make sense to keep the pack train behind Benteen and Reno, maybe cut out the ammo mules but the full train would be more of a burden than anything else. But we have two statements given by the two men who got back; Kanipe; TWC said to tell McDougal to bring the pack train straight across to high ground” Martini; “Bring Packs” Now one may have been an outright lie and the other one a cryptic message, but they have one thing in common, they both elude to the pack train. Ian. I too am with Fred on this. As you say Ian the messages are consistent with a desire to see the packs put somewhere safe as opposed to the insanity of dragging them in to charge to Custer. Gotta go to work. Later. Cheers
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Post by Beth on Mar 24, 2015 16:07:47 GMT -6
I agree totally with Fred's description, that's why I said at the beginning of my post that I don't think Benteen could have whipped them mules over that terrain, it is just that many probably think that Custer wanted Benteen to come with the full train to battle ridge and I don't think this was the case, if it was then Custer expected too much out of his pack train and after going over the route himself he should have known this. Ian. I just want to clarify this in my head. First I don't believe that Custer wanted the whole train to be brought to him, I tend to believe that he wanted them brought closer as well as not end up in the valley instead of the bluffs. Wouldn't it be pretty much SOP for Custer want his supplies in the rear but close enough to access and communicate with? QC between McDougall, French and Moylan why would you chose McDougall? My question about Crittenden weren't completely idle, Crittenden's vision obviously would have been very limited on his left side plus he hadn't had a lo. It was probably more of a personal problem then affecting the whole group, but it makes me wonder why he would have been there to begin with?
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Post by welshofficer on Mar 24, 2015 16:31:24 GMT -6
Crittenden's body was on the left of the line, with Calhoun on the right. Makes sense as the company bent to fill the hole left by C Company routing. So the jest that he was on the side of his bad eye has merit. Both officers died on their main line. Indian accounts highlight a fight against a US leader who died hard, in hand to hand combat. These two officers died doing their duty, in the finest performance of any officer in the northern sector. Will,
I agree with all of that. Unfortunately the time bending right to reel in C company survivors was the time they needed to vacate, especially with their horse holders so far to their rear.
I think the big issue with Benteen and a hypothetical pack train movement northwards would not so much be the terrain as whether the movement was uncontested and the hostiles were nearly all clearly visible in the valley west of the river. Once Reno was whipped, the pack train was never moving to battle ridge.
WO
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Post by welshofficer on Mar 24, 2015 16:40:29 GMT -6
I agree with Will that both officers in L were the best performers there. We have no way of knowing about Porter, so it can't be said one way or the other. Same is really true of Harrington. If he made a mistake and went down on his own hook, that's an Oh crap, but I think there is a fair chance that he redeemed himself. If he was ordered down there, it presents a completely different picture as to his culpability for what followed. Benteen was not, was never going to try and break through with packs in tow. That is just silly to even think it a possibility under the circumstances. Fred paints a realistic picture of any decision making process. Think I might have taken McDougal though vice either Moylan or French. QC,
Indeed. When I say that "Harrington got into trouble", I am describing a fact rather than allocating blame or responsibility for the movement. He may have been ordered down by Keogh, rather than acting of his own volition.
If we must do this hypothetical "Benteen rides to the sound of the guns" exercise, I would agree he would be tempted to take a 4th company. As to which one and it gets tricky. I would be tempted to leave McDougall behind. He is the rear guard, and it leaves Reno with a company that has not been whipped in the valley. I guess the real question is what shape French's company appears to be in, as I would expect Benteen to be only interested in B or M. Not A and certainly not G.
WO
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Post by quincannon on Mar 24, 2015 16:54:17 GMT -6
I agree on Harrington. We don't know. Harrington must be given the benefit of the doubt is there is to be any semblance of fairness here.
Good thing I guess that Harrington does not have any fan boys on one side and irrational, and moronic haters on the other.
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Post by welshofficer on Mar 24, 2015 17:15:00 GMT -6
I agree on Harrington. We don't know. Harrington must be given the benefit of the doubt is there is to be any semblance of fairness here. Good thing I guess that Harrington does not have any fan boys on one side and irrational, and moronic haters on the other. QC,
Quite, we already have enough debating level of:
"Custer good. Very good. Very very good. Keogh good. Very good. Very very good. Reno bad. Very bad. Very very bad. Benteen bad. Very bad. very very bad.".
WO
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