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Post by Mulligan on Sept 12, 2014 16:49:22 GMT -6
Yes, yes, I know the late Hank Weibert's wacky "Death of Custer" theory doesn't hold horse water on this board. However, if we can move beyond his far-fetched and rather comical denouement regarding Mitch Bouyer and instead examine the structural elements of his book -- Sixty-Six Years in Custer's Shadow -- I think everyone might be surprised by the clever way he wove experiences from his lifetime on the Crow Agency into his story, and that these personal anecdotes, perhaps not fully appreciated at first glance, may illuminate the events of June 25, 1876. I'm not going to list every instance in this post, but I will provide an example. Weibert relates a brief story concerning an elk hunting trip that several senior tribal members had organized in the 1950's. Even though Weibert was a white rancher -- an outsider -- he was often invited on these Crow hunting parties because he was a business associate, a good cook, owned an assortment of well-maintained camping equipment, and was a decent shot. As the trip begins there are a few evenings spent around the campfire re-telling hunting stories, which are familiar to all the participants. Of course, with each hunting season these same stories evolve and become exaggerated. With the consumption of some fine whiskey this occurs to an even greater degree. During the day, Weibert prefers to hunt alone, away from the main group. One morning he hears the sounds of shooting across the snow-covered mountain valleys. Many, many shots ring out in succession, and he supposes that his friends have encountered a great herd of elk. On his own, solitary hunt Weibert works diligently, creeping in very close to the game before risking a shot. In the afternoon he is able to take down three elk using only three bullets. Later, returning to camp, Weibert is surprised to learn that his NA friends -- who have expended several boxes of cartridges in the process -- have bagged only one elk. ~~~  So, in a page or two Mr. Weibert has spun a winter's tale. It is literary sleight-of-hand. Invisibly, without drawing any attention to his thesis, he has managed to: 1) describe the inclusive nature and expedient practicality of NA social culture 2) communicate what everyone knows to be true, that all stories of past glory become exaggerated in the re-telling 3) show that a focused individual may hunt with more efficiency than a less organized group 4) demonstrate that NAs do not necessarily hold an advantage on familiar terrain 5) present a clear impression of continuous gunfire heard from a distance 6) conclude that Marksmanship Ability and Fire Discipline will be the deciding factors in a hunt This is a heck of lot of information being delivered to the reader at the unconscious level. It's one reason I feel Weibert's book has been underrated and overlooked -- unfairly relegated to the "other pile" of books -- by some Custer researchers. Mulligan |
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Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 13, 2014 7:50:51 GMT -6
What makes you think that? Seems to me whatever someone chooses for their particular theory there is a book to support it.
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Post by Mulligan on Sept 13, 2014 13:33:34 GMT -6
AZ: Contributors to this forum -- which, other than Ranger Jasmer at the Battlefield, are my only live sources on the topic -- have indicated that any reliance I might place on the Henry Weibert narrative sort of marks me as a person who lacks credibility. I understand this. The late Mr. Weibert certainly appeared to pull a lot of stuff out of thin air when he arrived at his main conclusions. However, it was the veracity of small details in his book that caught my attention. It's a lot like trying to analyze the JFK Assassination by reading books. Some of the books are very dry. Some are completely bogus. Some contain facts. Some weave fantasy. What road does one take to arrive at the truth, especially after all these years? Not to digress too much, but do you recall the film scene from Sergio Leone's The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly when the bandit Tuco (Eli Wallach) forces his way into the gun store? Tuco makes the nervous proprietor place all the revolvers on top of the glass display case. He then disassembles them, carefully checking each of their various qualities. From these loose parts he creates a new handgun. In a way, this is how I'm piecing together my own view of the Custer battle. Mulligan  |
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Post by tubman13 on Sept 14, 2014 9:52:46 GMT -6
Mulligan
Interesting thread, your credibility is not in question, nor is Weibert's, depending upon topic. For example I very much enjoyed Herman J. Viola's book, on LBH topic, he uses a number of NA sources as well as writings of a number of whites who had great connections with both Cheyenne and Crow tribes. Those sources offer a perspective as well as some insights into the battle, but it is not going to give you a whole picture. I myself spend way to much time reading about minutiae and peripheral details. While that stuff interests me, it is only of minimal help in understanding the flow and total of the battle.
Regards,
Tom
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Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 15, 2014 10:20:21 GMT -6
Mulligan there is a difference in opinion and presentation of facts. Most of Weibert's negative comments are in regards to his opinions. Does your copy have the Weibert map included?
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by Mulligan on Sept 15, 2014 19:03:27 GMT -6
I purchased a previously owned soft-cover copy of Henry Weibert's Sixty-Six Years in Custer's Shadow from a used-book merchant who shipped from Oklahoma. It was only a few dollars. I pictured it gathering dust on the shelf of a run-down, reservation souvenir shop on the Cherokee Strip. When I opened the padded mailing envelope I saw my copy was in near-mint condition, and I was very pleasantly surprised to discover it had, at some point, been carefully signed by the elderly Mr. Weibert, now long since deceased. ~~~ The opening two pages depict a map drawn by Don Weibert, Hank's son (now also deceased), entitled "Troop Movements, June 25th, 1876". It is a rough sketch. Within the book are a few other maps, such as the 1985 NPS brochure map, and Lt. Godfrey's map. There are some fuzzy, black & white photographs of different areas of LBH taken from a low-flying crop-duster in the 1940's. In the book Mr. Weibert makes reference to a large, extremely detailed aerial map, made originally for agricultural irrigation and ranching purposes. The Weibert's (father and son) use this to pinpoint locations of artifacts they have uncovered. That map is not included in my book, unfortunately. It may be in Don Weibert's much more expensive book, the very rare Custer, Cases & Cartridges: The Weibert Collection Analyzed.
  When I last checked, this book was $150.00. Mulligan |
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Post by Dark Cloud on Sept 15, 2014 21:10:56 GMT -6
Mulligan,
Your credibility IS in question because you are very gullible. It's all in the spin.
1. He brings up booze and Indians, because Indians can't handle it (it's genetic in some degree) and they get drunk. Important for the reader to understand.
2. Weibert, who we're to understand is Natty Bumpo, hunts alone like a real man. He assumed all that noise was from his friends, but I'd suppose others hunt as well. His minutiae is impressive explaining what a great hunter he himself is, absent taking three elk which may have been illegal even in the 1950's but I don't know where this was, reservation or private land or what. And right, one bullet, one elk. Curious whether he field dressed three elk and brought it all in himself, or if he had a sled and dogs or let it rot. What's important is that he's a man among men.
3. Those crazy, hungover Indians used up boxes of cartridges to get one elk! Oh, those wacky, inferior Indians, how we love them!
4. "So, in a page or two Mr. Weibert has spun..." a tale of great improbability, although I know some hunters who could do that. Wasn't he just amazing? And what a guy to be beloved so and accepted by those Indians. It's not literary sleight-of-hand, it's more likely world class, letter sweater bat guano improbability. "Invisibly, without drawing any attention to his thesis....." Well, he may not have bought radio time and left out how the trees bowed as he passed, but this sounds pretty heavy handed.
You think he....
"1) described the inclusive nature and expedient practicality of NA social culture." Or he lifted it from some child's book about Our Friend the Indian, since even Disney cartoons reference all that. I'm altering the verb tense but leaving it in italics.
"2) communicated what everyone knows to be true, that all stories of past glory become exaggerated in the re-telling" Yes, most obviously including this one.
"3) show that a focused individual may hunt with more efficiency than a less organized group" Well, he's being modest. One PARTICULAR focused individual. God like, really.
"4) demonstrated that NAs do not necessarily hold an advantage on familiar terrain." If drunk and hungover, probably nobody does, but how does this story illustrate that conclusion? They get lost? Imagine they don't live in the wild anymore than Weibert, so not necessarily familiar ground.
"5) presents a clear impression of continuous gunfire heard from a distance." Have to take your word for it.
"6) conclude that Marksmanship Ability and Fire Discipline will be the deciding factors in a hunt" Really? Do Indians - or does anyone - apply mass fire on an elk? Is that allowed? Is Marksmanship Ability different from Marksmanship? Why is it capitalized? Some people don't know that hitting the target can be important in a hunt? And what fire discipline is exemplified beyond him killing with one shot? Elks aren't bison, they bolt at loud noises and can move even in snow, but he got three in short order in the afternoon? As you describe it, if you don't have every stay in the fleet flying a red flag, you're gullible.
Truly, I really suggest you and anyone else read On the Border with Crook by his adjutant Bourke. It's hysterical, true, and a great read. This was back in the days when if not good or lucky you starved.
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Post by Mulligan on Sept 16, 2014 16:00:51 GMT -6
Hey, 66 Years is just a book by an enterprising rancher that lived in the LBH valley his entire life. By trying to rain on the parade I think DC validates a lot of Weibert's thesis. 1) NA social culture, while simple, was disingenuous and allowed them to accommodate the whites to the necessary degree. In the end, those deadly Henrys and Sharps didn't materialize out of thin air. How "Disney" is that? 2) With a wink and a nod Hank reels in the hard-core cynics. Of course his Cooper-esque tale of hunting prowess is complete fiction. Just for a moment, though, one may think the teller of the tale believes his own lies -- for we know down deep this is the truth of men, and we behold ourselves in the mirror. 3) Weibert freely admits his hunting was illegal, in most cases. White or Red, men will do what they feel they must do. They will rule their own lands. This, also, is one of the eternal verities, as timeless as the seasons. 4) To understand Weibert, reverse and enlarge his perspectives. He's not talking about foolish Indians blasting away and wasting ammunition in the snow. He's talking about the lack of coherent national policies, loss of principled leadership, and undisciplined white soldiers dying in the summer buffalo grass. 5 To hunt alone is more efficient than hunting in a group. C'mon! He's talking about the Custer theorists. 6) Rifle fire in the distance, heard across a great, snow-covered valley. Have you ever, in your life, heard a more beautiful description of history? Do I really need to go on? We're just not on the same page with this, DC. You may want to read Weibert's book for yourself and match your brand of thinking against him directly, then get back to me, rather than expend your energy tilting at my windmill. An honest inquisitor need not be so skeptical of alternative viewpoints that he throws the proverbial babies out with the bath water.  Btw, I just ordered a copy of On the Border with Crook.~~~ Weibert can't fully answer what happened to Custer and the Seventh Cavalry, but in his deceptively simple inquiry he reveals the larger, universal truth: it is not fate that drives men to their decisions and actions, it is the human condition. "The fault, dear Brutus is not in our stars, but in ourselves, for we are underlings." --- Shakespeare (Julius Caesar) Mulligan |
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Post by Dark Cloud on Sept 16, 2014 18:37:44 GMT -6
No, Mulligan.
You started out by announcing your intent to resurrect Custer - as opposed to actually study him/battle/times - although Custer isn't in the dumpster. You're so wrapped up in meaningless cliches and phrases you don't realize you're posting nonsense of the first water.
Here, Bart Simpson ends his essay on something in junior high. Doesn't matter what, could be anything: ".... it is not fate that drives men to their decisions and actions, it is the human condition." WTF does that even mean? Fate is a concept of the ancient Greeks, like 'the firmament', that doesn't exist either, at least outside of literary template. The 'human condition' is about as vacuous a term as "human nature", which also doesn't find turgor in science.
You admit he's a liar, so I don't rain on his parade, he urinates on himself. Liars, of necessity, are hard core cynics, the worst. "With a wink and a nod Hank < wait, you knew him? You're on a first name basis? > reels in the hard-core cynics. Of course his Cooper-esque tale of hunting prowess is complete fiction. Just for a moment, though, one may think the teller of the tale believes his own lies -- for we know down deep this is the truth of men, and we behold ourselves in the mirror." We do? You may. In any case, if he lies about that, he lies about other stuff as well. To what end concurrent with accuracy or history or betterment, though? If he believes his lies he's moved beyond liar into the chronic bin.
Because it was so subtle, thank you for pointing out that terms never in my life heard addressing hunting were meant to reflect upon the battle. Just too deep for me. Don't know if the terms are your addition or his, but they don't fit what they're supposed to describe. Which of course is admitted did not happen. So.......
He, too, wants to praise Custer which requires an audience of Mulligans. He steals game, he lies, and yet with bended ear - and knee, in your case - we nod feverishly about his thoughts of "principled leadership" and national policy? He's a con man if your portrayal is correct. And you're willingly gullible.
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Post by Mulligan on Sept 16, 2014 21:04:42 GMT -6
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Post by AZ Ranger on Sept 20, 2014 9:09:47 GMT -6
I purchased a previously owned soft-cover copy of Henry Weibert's Sixty-Six Years in Custer's Shadow from a used-book merchant who shipped from Oklahoma. It was only a few dollars. I pictured it gathering dust on the shelf of a run-down, reservation souvenir shop on the Cherokee Strip. When I opened the padded mailing envelope I saw my copy was in near-mint condition, and I was very pleasantly surprised to discover it had, at some point, been carefully signed by the elderly Mr. Weibert, now long since deceased. ~~~ The opening two pages depict a map drawn by Don Weibert, Hank's son (now also deceased), entitled "Troop Movements, June 25th, 1876". It is a rough sketch. Within the book are a few other maps, such as the 1985 NPS brochure map, and Lt. Godfrey's map. There are some fuzzy, black & white photographs of different areas of LBH taken from a low-flying crop-duster in the 1940's. In the book Mr. Weibert makes reference to a large, extremely detailed aerial map, made originally for agricultural irrigation and ranching purposes. The Weibert's (father and son) use this to pinpoint locations of artifacts they have uncovered. That map is not included in my book, unfortunately. It may be in Don Weibert's much more expensive book, the very rare Custer, Cases & Cartridges: The Weibert Collection Analyzed.
View AttachmentThat map was included with the View AttachmentWhen I last checked, this book was $150.00. Mulligan Mulligan that map is included in Sixty-Six Years in Custer's Shadow someone removed the one from your book. My is signed also but not sure by whom. It is signed Henry & Don Weibert. Regards AZ Ranger |
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Post by Diane Merkel on Jan 22, 2016 9:49:15 GMT -6
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Post by custerbuff1952 on Jul 24, 2016 10:56:34 GMT -6
I just found this forum...really neat. I grew up in Central Washington and have driven by the Battlefield several times but never stopped. I really got interested about 1988 when I borrowed a Henry's book from a friend. Got my own copy about 2004 and have read it cover to cover several times. Lucky to have a signed copy and the large aerial map. Having spent most of my life as a criminal investigator I really appreciate the detail and "evidence" Henry presents. I'm planning to go to the anniversary in 2017 and want to retrace Custer's route from Ft Lincoln to LBH. Also hoping to do one of the horseback tours of the Battlefield. I highly recommend "Sixty-six Years in Custer's Shadow".
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Post by edavids on Jul 24, 2016 12:18:01 GMT -6
I just found this forum...really neat. I grew up in Central Washington and have driven by the Battlefield several times but never stopped. I really got interested about 1988 when I borrowed a Henry's book from a friend. Got my own copy about 2004 and have read it cover to cover several times. Lucky to have a signed copy and the large aerial map. Having spent most of my life as a criminal investigator I really appreciate the detail and "evidence" Henry presents. I'm planning to go to the anniversary in 2017 and want to retrace Custer's route from Ft Lincoln to LBH. Also hoping to do one of the horseback tours of the Battlefield. I highly recommend "Sixty-six Years in Custer's Shadow". Welcome! |
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Post by AZ Ranger on Jul 24, 2016 19:34:24 GMT -6
I just found this forum...really neat. I grew up in Central Washington and have driven by the Battlefield several times but never stopped. I really got interested about 1988 when I borrowed a Henry's book from a friend. Got my own copy about 2004 and have read it cover to cover several times. Lucky to have a signed copy and the large aerial map. Having spent most of my life as a criminal investigator I really appreciate the detail and "evidence" Henry presents. I'm planning to go to the anniversary in 2017 and want to retrace Custer's route from Ft Lincoln to LBH. Also hoping to do one of the horseback tours of the Battlefield. I highly recommend "Sixty-six Years in Custer's Shadow". Welcome custerbuff1952 The Weibert Ranch is owned by Chip and Sandy Watts and is called the 7th Ranch. He bought it from Henry and knew him. He knows the locations of the Weibert sites and we rode to them horseback. The metal stakes are still there. Chip no longer does horseback tours. He does some driving tours. www.historicwest.com/Regards AZ Ranger |
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