Did disobedience contribute to failure in this battle?

[tubman13]

I have a series of, maybe dumb, questions.

1. Was Custer ordered to scout an additional creek, before proceeding to LBH, I think Tullock's? Or was he given latitude not to? Would he have arrived at LBH a day later if scout was performed? Would the Benteen's left scout been required? Was Custer ordered to wait for a certain date to attack, or was he given latitude? Lastly, do you think he followed the spirit/letter of his orders? 

2. Did Reno follow the orders of his attack, as transmitted? Should he have been with his skirmish line conducting the battle or sitting in the timber with horses? Did he not wait long enough for support?

3. Did Benteen disobey his orders by breaking off his scout when he did? Would he have been harder to find by messengers had he continued his scout? Could he have arrived at Reno Hill to help pull Reno's  chestnuts out of the fire if he had continued the scout? Could he have come to Reno' support in the valley, from the rear, if he had continued his scout all the way to the river?

4. Would have the battle played out differently with any above changes had taken place?

Maybe the question would be better for the other board, but never having posted there, you guys are stuck with this blather.

Regards,
Tom

[quincannon]

Tom, you sure have stuffed a lot of meat into this sausage. I can't see how anyone could answer without starting World War III.

I am not even going to try. What I will do is say this. I can be a very forgiving person on things like these, apparent blunders, boxes unfilled. checkmarks made or not made, because I use Moltke, and according to him, embellished a titch by me, No operational concept survives the line of departure, no tactical plan first contact. Commanders draw pay for doing what they think best in all things. Sometimes best is not good enough. Sometimes best is wrong. You never ask more than best. You never accept less than best.

[Dark Cloud]

Tubman, much of this isn't controversial. If you'd read Terry's instructions, you'd know the answers to 1 and 2. We can't ever know the answer to #4.

Terry clearly and in writing did not give orders but instructions with a clear statement that all was to be obeyed unless Custer had good reason for departing from them. Custer had good reason and followed the huge trail. Terry's instructions were based on inaccurate maps since nobody obviously knew where the headwaters of the rivers at issue were, far south in the Bighorns. Custer did not disobey his instructions given the built in escape clause.

He'd been told to scout the top of Tulloch's Creek, but there was no indication of Indians there by smoke or trail. Herendeen was there solely for that mission to inform Terry, but by the time Herendeen could get to Terry - if he could get to Terry - the reality on the ground would make it useless. Custer knew that Terry's guys would check the north end of Tullochs and would see not signs either, so Terry wasn't left hanging.

Reno's orders as they come to us were not disobeyed. We're told officers on the scene are trained to adapt and ought to do what is best and unless evidence appears they violated orders and screwed up, we should take them at their word. He was awaiting support to his charge that had smartly ceased, but it would soon be considered support for escape if it arrived at all, something for which he'd seen no indication. He couldn't wait longer, run out of ammo with night coming on at the village window.

Benteen, the officer in charge of the scout, reached the decision that it wasn't a constructive effort, and returned to rejoin with the command as officers are allowed to do. As distance increases, especially over rough ground, he'd obviously become harder to find. It could have been a long time to get to the valley of the LBH, then head north, and arrive at Reno's site that day with men and mounts in any condition to fight. Of course, Benteen had no clue Reno was off on his own anyway.

[Yan Taylor]

Tom, I may have a copy of the instructions Terry gave to Custer, if you want to see it I will gladly post it here.

Plus Custer refused not only the Gatling Guns but extra couple of Companies from the 2nd Cavalry, which makes it clear that he wanted this mission to feature his Regiment only, and of course the spoils that go with it, if he was victorious of course.

Ian.

[Dark Cloud]

Or, far better, he can google it and select from the numerous options. Here's one:

www.littlebighorn.info/Articles/terryord.htm

[tubman13]

DC and Ian, thanks but I had read Custer's/instructions a long time ago and understand them well. DC your answers are far better than I would have thought of myself. So I guess a very loose plan from the beginning became even looser as the 7th progressed. What is more disturbing is that(and I know we have discussed this)Custer never discussed his action plan with his subordinates. And I would also guess that if there was no need to recon/scout Tullocks, and there obviously was not as you point out, then there was no need to recon/scout the area of battle. There is a big village somewhere out there let's go attack it. Tactics, terrain, and opposition be damned. Reno became an afterthought as soon as Custer left him. Then to further divide your command after MTC, reducing your effective combat strength even more??? Anyway it seems very few orders were actually given, and even some of those were ignored.

Chuck, I was not trying to start WWIII, merely trying to point out that if Custer had proceeded to the headwaters of Tullock's and then turned towards the LBH constantly feeling to his right he would have had the NA's between he and Terry. Also his timing for battle would have been better. So the only real question was question one.

Regards,
Tom

[quincannon]

I suppose you are correct Tom. Timing though was completely in Custer's hands. No one forced him in that valley on the 25th.

[AZ Ranger]

Seems to me that Custer could not over look the Indian trail up Davis Creek and down Reno Creek. It was an established corridor and should not be left open. From that point on it was a series of events unfolding without much details obtained to make an informed decision. Custer created his own crisis by moving up Davis Creek. I am not judging one way or the other just how I see it unfolding.

I think Custer never went to the headwaters but I don't think Terry knew the headwaters were in Wyoming.


AZ Ranger