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Sept 2, 2014 15:08:09 GMT -6
Post by tubman13 on Sept 2, 2014 15:08:09 GMT -6
Good stuff guys, thanks it has been a nice break to come in periodically from cutting, to read a post or to post. It is darned hot here and humid, and I have 4 more yellow jacket nests to gas tonight.
Regards, Tom
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Sept 2, 2014 17:05:55 GMT -6
Post by Mulligan on Sept 2, 2014 17:05:55 GMT -6
"There are Three Types of Certainty: 1) Damned Sure, 2) My Daddy Can Whip Your Daddy Sure, and 3) Don't Know" That is another gem from QC. Lately he has been helping me with map-reading and mind-reading. I wrote this last night as a response to his coaching: Yes, I kept my battlefield brochure, and I studied the map while re-reading, and re-reading again, your post regarding the government exigencies of NPS map preparation, the actual known movements of the Seventh Cavalry, and the speculative route Custer may have taken as he searched along the LBH, north of MTC, for an opportunity to ford -- if that's what he was doing. On the NPS map the blue broken-dash arrow just left of center is northwest of the main battlefield property and it's taken me awhile to understand the strategic significance of that area. Until recently I was unfamiliar with this interpretation of LTC Custer's maneuvering prior to falling back to Battle Ridge. On June 12, 2014, I parked (for a moment) just outside the park's stone entrance gate and walked to the side of the road. I have marked this location M on the map. Facing west, looking in the direction of the blue broken-dash arrow on the map -- I took a photograph of the vista before me -- horses grazing in a ravine (Crazy Horse Ravine?) and the LBH river valley beyond -- and I wondered if I was capturing a landscape where parts of the battle had occurred. Mulligan
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Sept 2, 2014 17:44:35 GMT -6
Post by quincannon on Sept 2, 2014 17:44:35 GMT -6
Your battlefield map has changed from mine. That dashed blue line you indicated off property in yours is on property in mine. Mine is eight or nine years old and barely holding together. What you are seeing with this dashed line is an approach march toward to Ford D area via the back (east) side of Battle Ridge and into a ravine that intersects with the park entrance road between the cemetery and the main gate to the park. I think it is more accurate than that portrayed on mine. Fred described the route in more detail within the last 24 hours here.
I can't see much in the photo. It is a bit too dark.
Do you have the Ford D area locked in by my description of a day or so ago. It is clearly evident on the portion of the map you posted. You will note that the NPS is still not ready to bring Custer all the way to Ford D. I do not think there is enough evidence to conclude that he reached there to the point of feet wet, and I am not at all sure he needed to. If you see Montrose's post, about looking for an attack position, I suspect that is exactly what he was doing> He did not need to go to the objective of any intended assault, but he did need an attack position and probable line of deployment.
Just out of curiosity I would love to see the rest of that map to compare with my own to detect any other changes made. LBH is not a destination. It is a journey.
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Sept 2, 2014 18:03:28 GMT -6
Post by Mulligan on Sept 2, 2014 18:03:28 GMT -6
Here is an improved (hopefully) copy of my photo, using Adobe Lightroom 5 software. I am now scanning the NPS Brochure Map, which I will post next.
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Sept 2, 2014 18:29:36 GMT -6
Post by Mulligan on Sept 2, 2014 18:29:36 GMT -6
Here is the current (2014) NPS LBH Brochure Map:
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Sept 2, 2014 18:29:55 GMT -6
Post by tubman13 on Sept 2, 2014 18:29:55 GMT -6
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Post by quincannon on Sept 2, 2014 18:45:29 GMT -6
It is greatly changed in that the map I have shows much more in solid blue in the central region. Looks like NPS has downgraded from Damned sure to Whip your daddy sure Same routes are depicted with the lines only they have been moved from sure to speculative. I am still not ready to put any money up against them, and while I think the speculative routes are correct I think their reluctance is prudent.
I was looking at the Custer portion of the narrative last night on the same brochure and have never seen so many words used to say nothing.
There is nothing wrong by the way in saying you don't know. Sometimes you do know what you don't know.
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Sept 3, 2014 0:05:02 GMT -6
Post by Mulligan on Sept 3, 2014 0:05:02 GMT -6
Fred, It's late. Maybe I'm not reading this thread right. Are you suggesting Custer's five companies had arrived within sight of the river (and the Big Village) -- and Custer himself may even have been down in the cattails with companies E & F reconnoitering an attack point -- and that's when he decided to send Martini back with the message? If I've got that part correct, Martini then carries Custer's message nearly 10 miles (on the NPS map, Martini travels from near where Highway 90 crosses the river to the extreme right edge of the map), has his horse virtually shot out from under him, and all he can say to Benteen when he arrives is, "The Indians are skedaddlin'!" ? Please straighten me out on this. Mulligan PS. I may be a novice but I do like the idea of Custer riding through the cattails in his last moments, doing his homework, just before everything falls apart. It's a very nuanced, original picture. Starting to really dawn on me that maybe this wasn't all some huge, brutish, cinematic charge into swarming hordes of NAs -- thank you! -- and I'm beginning to comprehend that the maneuvers you're describing have the imprimatur of a brilliant mind. If I were leading -- God Forbid!! -- I might have just looked down at wide-open MTC from the ridge and said, "OK, everybody, that looks pretty good, let's GO!!!!" Of course, my cavalry command would've never made it through Day One of the ACW.
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Post by mac on Sept 3, 2014 1:23:43 GMT -6
Mulligan Love the picture from position M. To me it shows how hard it is in this region to get a full view of anything. Backing up Fred's assertion that Custer was never able to fully assess what he was up against. I understand your question to Fred, I think. He is not suggesting Martini was sent from Ford D. Although Martini did "progress" himself a bit as the years went by he never got that far! I notice that on the NPS map they no longer label the warrior loop north of cemmetery as Crazy Horse. I think they used to. I never thought that to be correct. I have a memory from somewhere that Deep Ravine was once called CH Ravine. Cheers
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Sept 3, 2014 2:14:52 GMT -6
Post by Mulligan on Sept 3, 2014 2:14:52 GMT -6
OK, got it.
I was a bit confused by Fred's sentence structure in an earlier post on this thread, because I was tired, and I was reading posts in reverse order. I'm already in the cattails with Custer at Ford D.
Then Fred: "If he could cross at Ford D with enough men, enough of an organized force, he could cut through...that was why he sent Martini back."
Didn't catch "...sent Martini back" as preceding Custer's ruminations at Ford D, in the paragraph. My bad.
I'm absorbing a lot of new material about movements at Ford D, so pardon my occasional stupid question, please!
Mulligan
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Sept 3, 2014 4:42:20 GMT -6
Post by quincannon on Sept 3, 2014 4:42:20 GMT -6
SGT Kanipe left or was dispatched (opinions differ -- greatly) very shortly after Custer observed Reno near Bench Mark 3411 (on the bluffs east and above where Reno was engaged. Martini departed with the "note" shortly thereafter as they were entering or just in to Cedar Coulee. Martini, as he grew older and his rock star status increased, move the point of his leaving closer and closer with seemingly each telling of the tale.
The above picture shows the general area of D. I think Custer's view of this same area would have been further to the right and several hundred meters closer. It is also hard to tell what the original configuration of the gravel pit area would have looked like then, and that could potentially make a difference in how far Custer would have to go to get a clear view of what he wanted to see. There is another such gravel pit near the Stone Bridge at Manassas (off Federal Property) that has taken away terrain significant in understanding the first battle. You can say he same thing in some respect about all of our preserved battlefield though.
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Sept 3, 2014 7:11:19 GMT -6
Post by Yan Taylor on Sept 3, 2014 7:11:19 GMT -6
Hello all; there was one thing that I forget to ask you ex-military gentlemen, and concerns the Officer that could have been shot off his horse, now if the order was to attack right across the ford and hit the village, then surly the sight of this Officer being hit would not deter the objective of the main assault, wouldn’t it simply just carry on through without losing momentum? Even if it was the commander his orders should be carried out and there should be no reason for the whole command to halt and bunch like a train, that’s another reason why this was not an attack, and if an Officer was wounded then it was during the process of reconnoitre.
Ian.
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Sept 3, 2014 8:54:02 GMT -6
Post by quincannon on Sept 3, 2014 8:54:02 GMT -6
There is many a position that started off to be taken by a Captain or Lieutenant and was taken by a Sergeant.
If you look at the insignia of the 19th Infantry, it contains the shoulder strap of a 2LT. It is there for a reason. The reason being that it was a 2LT that commanded the regiment at the end of the day at Chickamauga. That was not the situation when the day began. There was also a very good reason why Thomas referred to the regiment as "The Rock of Chickamauga" a name they still carry.
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Sept 3, 2014 9:43:29 GMT -6
Post by fred on Sept 3, 2014 9:43:29 GMT -6
View AttachmentOn the NPS map the blue broken-dash arrow just left of center is northwest of the main battlefield property and it's taken me awhile to understand the strategic significance of that area. Until recently I was unfamiliar with this interpretation of LTC Custer's maneuvering prior to falling back to Battle Ridge. On June 12, 2014, I parked (for a moment) just outside the park's stone entrance gate and walked to the side of the road. I have marked this location M on the map. Facing almost due WEST, looking in the direction of the blue broken-dash arrow on the map -- I took a photograph of the vista before me -- horses grazing in a ravine (Crazy Horse Ravine?) and the LBH river valley beyond -- and I wondered if I was capturing a landscape where parts of the battle had occurred. View Attachment Mulligan, Your map and photo do not jibe. Your M should be below the entrance road, not above. That photo is looking due west and I believe that is the old gravel pit before the Interstate, on somewhat of a small plateau (by the way, that is a great shot and I would like your permission to use it for some future thing I have in mind). The road is behind you. The ravine in the foreground is the route Custer would have taken to Ford D... Cemetery Ridge (on the left) would mask his advance. This was also, at one time, known as Crazy Horse Ravine, for there was a significant period when people believed this was the route Crazy Horse took to the battlefield. This is also the area where Marc Kellogg was killed. If I am not mistaken, his old marker was placed just beyond the spot where those two lower horses are, side-by-side, just by that clump of bushes, ENE of the pair. The slope ends there. I am guessing you took this picture right above the road culvert. Great shot, Mulligan. Best wishes, Fred.
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Sept 3, 2014 9:48:12 GMT -6
Post by fred on Sept 3, 2014 9:48:12 GMT -6
Fred this is one of the maps I referred to earlier. Tom, Gotcha! But the map is wrong. It shows Crazy Horse's move up the old CH Ravine when it should be Deep Ravine. Plus, the village is too long. The last of it-- the Cheyenne "circle" ended about ¼ mile north of Ford B, right around where a small intermittent stream entered the river. You can see that little creek's remnants on the GPS map. Best wishes, Fred.
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