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Post by Beth on Aug 30, 2014 10:51:30 GMT -6
Last night I was browsing a web site about a few of the battle survivors and I was shocked with the number of suicides. Has anyone ever figured out the rate of suicide for the soldiers on that campaign? Or an estimate to how many basically drank themselves to death.
I wonder if the numbers are about the same as the current rate with soldiers returning home from war.
Beth
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Post by quincannon on Aug 30, 2014 11:08:39 GMT -6
War injures both body and mind Beth. Of the two that latter is far worse than the former, although the former is horrible in itself.
Just a guess, but given the relative size they are probably about the same as far as suicides or the more long term effects. Hard to tell with drinking though as drinking was much more common, and its deteriorating effects may be war related or from other causes.
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Post by Beth on Aug 30, 2014 11:23:08 GMT -6
War injures both body and mind Beth. Of the two that latter is far worse than the former, although the former is horrible in itself. Just a guess, but given the relative size they are probably about the same as far as suicides or the more long term effects. Hard to tell with drinking though as drinking was much more common, and its deteriorating effects may be war related or from other causes. I know we as a society pay a high price for our wars--generations after generations of young men and women who have sacrificed their youth and their lives. My grandfather was a WWI vet who was labeled 'shell shocked' by the end of the war. When he started courting my grandmother, his sisters pulled her aside to warn her that he was 'different' after coming back from France. Luckily Grandma didn't listen, they had a nearly 60 year marriage and no one can remember hearing them exchange a single word of anger with each other. |
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Post by quincannon on Aug 30, 2014 11:52:45 GMT -6
It was quite close to home for me too Beth. Two years ago this past February my neighbor two doors down wife told him she wanted a divorce. The shouting and confrontation started as he came home from work out in front of their house. It continued inside until he pulled out a pistol, shot her, then himself in front of their three kids. He was a few tour (not sure how many) vet of Iraq. You could meet him out at the mailbox or on the street and sometimes he was a normal friendly guy. At other times he would see you and seemingly not recognize you, and appeared to have a thousand yard stare, his body being one place and his mind at a far distance place.
The names of these people will never appear on any monuments, or be celebrated in November or remembered in May, but they, both of them are just as much a casualty of war as the young man or woman killed by sniper or IED. The shame of it is that few recognize,and less care.
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Post by tubman13 on Aug 30, 2014 14:36:42 GMT -6
6 suicides I know of. Weir most dramatic to drink him self to death, Capt. of M Company(French) drank himself to death it just took longer. You can find many more that died of alcohol. But how many were already on that road, to begin with? I know French and Weir were. Reno's alcohol issues with women were well documented.
Regards,
Tom
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Post by Mulligan on Aug 30, 2014 16:50:15 GMT -6
RE: Suicides
Has there ever been a more rapid onslaught of PTSD symptoms recorded than that experienced by Captain Weir? I thought this disorder took some time to develop. Aside from that, at a critical stage of the battle he emerges as a clear-headed and right-minded leader of near-heroic proportion -- not a potential candidate for almost immediate suicide upon his return to normal duty.
I mean, it's fairly clear he had the goods on Reno and Benteen and loyal comrades who would back him up.
As I've said, I'm not a conspiracy theorist -- not me! -- but did Weir's sudden death cause anyone to remark, at the time, that perhaps the circumstances were unusual?
Mulligan
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Post by mac on Aug 30, 2014 22:26:21 GMT -6
Amazing!
I was just looking through Fred's participants book and suddenly realized how often I was reading the word suicide and I get home and you are on that very topic.
I agree that suicide by alcohol also counts and Mulligan I suspect he may have been on the way there before LBH, probably with many others. A civil war will do that to you.
I always wondered why my father and his friends acted as they did and over the years have come to understand why as I have learned more psychology.
Police often have the same hidden phenomenon.
Sad thing!
Cheers
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Post by quincannon on Aug 30, 2014 22:56:07 GMT -6
Weir drank himself to death. It started long before LBH, and ended shortly after when his liver said enough is enough.
Now I really want to hear what "goods" Weir had on Reno and Benteen. Not tonight though, nor next week or next month. Maybe this time next year, when you have had a chance to come up to speed in tactics and decision making, and understand the flow of the battle, if not the finite detail, which none of us know. What I think you will find is the "goods" bag is empty, but lets just wait and see.
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Post by Mulligan on Sept 2, 2014 0:52:26 GMT -6
QC: I have marked the calendar, September 1, 2015. Maybe the "goods" bag contents will surprise us both.  Mulligan |
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Post by quincannon on Sept 2, 2014 11:17:29 GMT -6
OK It's a date. But just so we can be on an even playing field I will say that there was no "goods" to be had
So that both of our positions can be evaluated a year hence what do you say this day that those goods were, in finite detail if you please.
There will be no discussion on my part for the agreed upon period. I ask you this so that you position today may be on record, and to see if there is any change in that opinion a year from now.
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Post by Mulligan on Sept 2, 2014 21:42:00 GMT -6
QC,
As I understand it, we are speaking of the figurative "goods" bag that Captain Weir held on Reno and Benteen as being damaging information that could've had some possibly sinister relation to his untimely passing.
I think I already have a feel for the premise that leads you to the "no goods" conclusion. I may be wrong. You may reveal your precise thinking next year.
For the record, I'll just say Capt. Weir's "goods" bag was potentially lethal enough to threaten great harm both inside and outside military circles, and that is a basis for at least considering foul play.
My reasoning, in more finite detail, available next year at this time, sir.
Mulligan
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Post by Mulligan on Sept 2, 2014 22:52:20 GMT -6
Server Error
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Post by quincannon on Sept 3, 2014 5:03:00 GMT -6
It is the supposed contents of the goods bag, information that you think could damage Reno, Benteen, or both that I would like to see out of the bag and on the table, so that all may see, and that can serve as a bench mark a year hence as to if you have changed your mind about them or not.
There is nothing that Weir had on either of these two men. NOTHING, except disappointment about not going immediately to Custer. Disappointment is not a chargeable offense. Stop and think a minute. Don't you think that everyone that survived could have leveled the same charges, had the same "goods" if they thought that anything was amiss? Why was it only Weir that had the so called "goods"? You can look until hell freezes over and you will find absolutely nothing, not one chargeable offense against either one of them. The fact that what happened was not pretty is not chargeable. Unprofessional perhaps. Disorganized certainly, but no where near what you elude to. As a matter of fact what Weir did was chargeable. He was not because these people understood that he was thinking with his emotions, and not his brain.
Command decision were made, based upon the situation that existed when Benteen joined Reno. This could be a field of study all on its own. When does an officer have both the duty and authority to ignore previously given orders that are overcome by events. We spend a tremendous amount of money teaching these things in all of our schools from the basic course to the war college. If we wanted to be led by automatons or robots we would just buy them at Wal-Mart and save all the time and trouble. An officer's first duty is to think, and then have the moral courage to do his duty as best he can, in light of ever changing battlefield situations
Never in all you studies forget that soldiers, especially commanders and leaders are first human before they are soldiers. Often the human side and the soldier side of a person are at loggerheads, where the humanity of a person says one thing and the soldier say another, It those instances, when everything is on the line, and those you are responsible look only to you to do what is right, humanity must often be put aside for the decisions that must be made by the soldier.
There was a very similar situation that presented itself in our time. One platoon of 1st Battalion, 7th Cavalry was cut off, pinned, and surrounded due to the actions of an overly aggressive 2LT, for more than a day at LZ XRAY. LTC Moore the battalion commander refused to send a force in to extract it, and about half the platoon died including the platoon leader and platoon sergeant.. LTC Moore was correct in his decision. His overall situation would not permit it, and he was unwilling to expend more lives and endanger the rest of his command in an attempt to extract these people. The human side of Moore though, expressed in both of his books, is full of sorrow for those men, but not for the decision he made.
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Post by tubman13 on Sept 3, 2014 6:46:20 GMT -6
Guys, every witness at RCOI had an opportunity to open that bag and did not. Chuck, your last example, hits the mark, 1st of an officer's responsibility is for his men. I have often felt that RCOI was a bit of cover up, white wash, but more tan anything a way to put those issues behind them. There were no members of Company M at RCOI, they had issues that could have been brought forth, but none of those issues had anything to do with battle management after dash from valley. The telling fact is that not one of the surviving officers opened that bag after the deaths of Reno or Benteen. These officers could have spoken up after their own retirement, they never did. A number of the officers did not care for Reno and could have attempted to roast him, they did not. Also, to a man these same officers had nothing but respect and praise for the way Benteen handled himself after joining Reno's command.
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Post by tubman13 on Sept 3, 2014 6:47:40 GMT -6
Guys, every witness at RCOI had an opportunity to open that bag and did not. Chuck, your last example, hits the mark, 1st of an officer's responsibility is for his men. I have often felt that RCOI was a bit of cover up, white wash, but more tan anything a way to put those issues behind them. There were no members of Company M at RCOI, they had issues that could have been brought forth, but none of those issues had anything to do with battle management after dash from valley. The telling fact is that not one of the surviving officers opened that bag after the deaths of Reno or Benteen. These officers could have spoken up after their own retirement, they never did. A number of the officers did not care for Reno and could have attempted to roast him, they did not. Also, to a man these same officers had nothing but respect and praise for the way Benteen handled himself after joining Reno's command.
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