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Post by welshofficer on May 28, 2015 11:00:59 GMT -6
Quincannon: I understand and appreciate the virtue of morality. I do believe that Custer in battle did not ask his men to do what he would not do. He led from the front and not the rear. He led from the front not simply because he was brave but cavalry unlike infantry needed its commander to be in the front to react quickly. I have read that Custer was motivated to regain his position and was therefore reckless in the attempt. This is a plausible motivation but It is based on inference stacking without any direct evidence. Ambitious he was but he was also calculatting during the CW. Some say dividing his forces was an error others claim it was required. I am here to read all the opinions. It strikes me that a commander can only lead from the front when they know what their rear is doing--one of the many problems Custer had at LBH. Beth Beth,
When a regimental commander of 12 companies dies fixed on a hill commanding 1 company, with the nearest 4 scattered companies also wiped out to the last man, whatever he is doing is not commanding his regiment.
WO
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Post by Beth on May 28, 2015 11:03:43 GMT -6
The vegetation has changed, because of introduction of some invasive plants like cheat grass but one of the biggest change to the whole ecosystem of the plains is the removal of the bison. You can't remove such a keystone species to the plains and expect it to remain unchanged. I am not sure how true this is regarding the flora, but you are 100% correct about the buffalo. I do not know what has or has not been introduced, so it is hard for me to say. Seasons and years change, so one year's drought leads to another's rain-forest: who is to say? I have photos of a lush green battlefield and photos of a dry, sere field. To me, the biggest changes are the loss of the "gap" and the extension of Deep Ravine. As for dust, 20,000 grazing ponies in several different areas; 92-degree heat for several days; 10,000 people-- give or take a dozen or two-- can wear out a green field pretty quickly and when you add the lack of cordite to old-fashioned ammunition, you have all the dust and smoke anyone could want. Best wishes, Fred. I was just reading about introduced flora the other day, there are several introduced species but cheatgrass is one of those particularly nasty ones. We first learned about it when our dog picked up a awn in his foot and we had to have it surgically removed. They have barbs on them that cause the awn to work its way through skin. Also when we would go out rocket flying the awns get into your socks and shoes and are impossible to remove and uncomfortable if they get into your skin. You have to wear boots around it or go through a lot of shoes The big problem with cheatgrass is it squeezes out native plants and increases the probability of fire because it is highly flammable. It also recovers quicker in a burned out area so it is like a never ending cycle that is hard to control. I could go on but I think I've exposed my nerdiness enough for one day. Beth |
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Post by fred on May 28, 2015 11:17:49 GMT -6
I was just reading about introduced... the other day, there are several introduced species but cheatgrass is one of those particularly nasty ones. Beth, OK, but does that mean it is at the LBH battlefield today? As best I can determine the following has not changed... and is "cheatgrass" known by another name? Vegetation at the Little Big Horn... o Most precipitation occurs during May through July, only 10 to 12 inches per year. o Shortgrass prairie o Buffalo grass, spreading by aboveground roots, rooting as it spreads, with tufts of green grass. It can grow as much as an inch or two a day. o Blue grama grass, taller than buffalo grass, six to twenty inches high. o Western wheatgrass o Needle-and-thread o Locoweed o Plains wallflower o Gumweed o Prairie clover o Sunflower o Sagebrush o Some prickly pear cactus and yucca o Trees grow primarily in sheltered coulees and along riverbanks: o Mostly cottonwood o Aspen o Chokeberry o Mesquite o Juniper o Some cedar o Ash In general, the three most important grasses for sustaining horses and buffalo were: o Bluestem o Blue grama o Buffalo grass In 1876 the valley was thick with dust from a drought. In 1877, the year Sheridan and Nowlan went to the battlefield to re-bury the dead and mark the officers’ graves, “flowers were in abundance and luxurious grasses grew as high as the horses’ stirrups” [Michno, The Mystery of E Troop, p. 188]. “‘Coulees intervened, trees and shrubbery masked the Indians retreat along the river bank below; tall, heavy sagebrush, since cropped by sheep, covered the battlefield at a height that would conceal a lurking savage.’ All of which gives weight to the contention that the topography of the country in the vicinity of the hostile village had more to do with Custer’s defeat than any other factor” [Stewart, Custer’s Luck, pp. 436 – 437, citing Edna L. Waldo, Dakota, p. 197, in FN 22, and Burdick, Last Battle of the Sioux Nation, p. 40, in FN 23]. On p. 197, Michno mentions Robert G. Rosenberg, a Wyoming historical consultant with a background in forestry and western history. The trees everyone calls cedars are actually Rocky Mountain junipers, very common in this region. They grow as tall as 40' to 55', but are more commonly 10' to 25' tall. These are the trees that line Cedar Coulee. This, of course, is all in one of my books. Best wishes, Fred. |
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Post by Beth on May 28, 2015 11:29:58 GMT -6
I live in the west as most of you know. Out here we call any wind above ten miles per hour The Chinook. While I live in the normal suburban development, that development is surrounded by land used to graze cattle, open prairie. When the Chinook strikes you can't see your hand in front of you at times, and a haze falls over the land to a point where the sun is a blur. I have a pretty good idea what you are talking about QC, when we lived in Idaho we tried to explain dust to family in Iowa it's something you just have to experience to understand how blinding dust can be. It's not just like driving down a gravel road and kicking up some dust. Then there are actual dust storms-- Beth |
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Post by quincannon on May 28, 2015 11:34:19 GMT -6
Clean the inside of my window sills every day Beth. If you want to live in the west you cope with the environment of the high plains desert.
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Post by Beth on May 28, 2015 12:07:04 GMT -6
I was just reading about introduced... the other day, there are several introduced species but cheatgrass is one of those particularly nasty ones. Beth, OK, but does that mean it is at the LBH battlefield today? As best I can determine the following has not changed... and is "cheatgrass" known by another name? Vegetation at the Little Big Horn... o Most precipitation occurs during May through July, only 10 to 12 inches per year. o Shortgrass prairie o Buffalo grass, spreading by aboveground roots, rooting as it spreads, with tufts of green grass. It can grow as much as an inch or two a day. o Blue grama grass, taller than buffalo grass, six to twenty inches high. o Western wheatgrass o Needle-and-thread o Locoweed o Plains wallflower o Gumweed o Prairie clover o Sunflower o Sagebrush o Some prickly pear cactus and yucca o Trees grow primarily in sheltered coulees and along riverbanks: o Mostly cottonwood o Aspen o Chokeberry o Mesquite o Juniper o Some cedar o Ash In general, the three most important grasses for sustaining horses and buffalo were: o Bluestem o Blue grama o Buffalo grass In 1876 the valley was thick with dust from a drought. In 1877, the year Sheridan and Nowlan went to the battlefield to re-bury the dead and mark the officers’ graves, “flowers were in abundance and luxurious grasses grew as high as the horses’ stirrups” [Michno, The Mystery of E Troop, p. 188]. “‘Coulees intervened, trees and shrubbery masked the Indians retreat along the river bank below; tall, heavy sagebrush, since cropped by sheep, covered the battlefield at a height that would conceal a lurking savage.’ All of which gives weight to the contention that the topography of the country in the vicinity of the hostile village had more to do with Custer’s defeat than any other factor” [Stewart, Custer’s Luck, pp. 436 – 437, citing Edna L. Waldo, Dakota, p. 197, in FN 22, and Burdick, Last Battle of the Sioux Nation, p. 40, in FN 23]. On p. 197, Michno mentions Robert G. Rosenberg, a Wyoming historical consultant with a background in forestry and western history. The trees everyone calls cedars are actually Rocky Mountain junipers, very common in this region. They grow as tall as 40' to 55', but are more commonly 10' to 25' tall. These are the trees that line Cedar Coulee. This, of course, is all in one of my books. Best wishes, Fred. Cheatgrass is a also called downy brome, droopy brome or Bromus tectorum. I've sometimes heard it called wild oats. It was introduced to the US from Asia in the 1890's so it wasn't at LBH at the time of the battle. It is at the Battlefield today along with several other introduced weeds. I've moved further conversation on flora and fauna to the Terrain thread. link |
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Post by Beth on May 28, 2015 12:11:18 GMT -6
It strikes me that a commander can only lead from the front when they know what their rear is doing--one of the many problems Custer had at LBH. Beth Beth,
When a regimental commander of 12 companies dies fixed on a hill commanding 1 company, with the nearest 4 scattered companies also wiped out to the last man, whatever he is doing is not commanding his regiment.
WO
I agree whole heartedly. If Custer hadn't been 'leading from the front" he would have had a good idea where his other 11 companies were. |
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Post by Beth on May 28, 2015 12:18:42 GMT -6
Clean the inside of my window sills every day Beth. If you want to live in the west you cope with the environment of the high plains desert. Yup and I loved living there. I'd move back in a New York minute. Mountains and oceans are nice but I love the open plains. I feel like I can breathe, and if its tinged with the smell of wild sage all the better. Beth |
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Post by quincannon on May 28, 2015 12:25:33 GMT -6
Jaguar, your depth of knowledge on LBH is betrayed by the reading material you list. The conclusion easily drawn is non-existent beyond the fact that Custer was there and died.
The one you are currently reading is a joke. I know the author, and know him to be a complier of lists, not very good lists, and as far as any tactical analysis or writing ability he stinks. Had I known you wanted his book you could have had my copy, Believe me I did not pay for it. Alas the trash man visited about 0700 this very morn, and it now resides in the county dump.
I will say this about Van de Water's Glory Hunter. It was written in the near aftermath of Fluffy's final trip to join the boy wonder, so they may play kissy face in the great hereafter. It was the first book to my knowledge that started to take the bloom off the rose. I have a first edition.
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Post by welshofficer on May 28, 2015 12:26:42 GMT -6
Beth,
He was continuously dispersing his forces, more often than not after probing and not awaiting the reaction. Inexplicable.
WO
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Post by quincannon on May 28, 2015 12:29:04 GMT -6
Beth: For me it is the stars at night, their clarity and brightness. At heart I am Deaf Smith wearing Hart Schaffner and Marx
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Post by Beth on May 28, 2015 12:44:51 GMT -6
Beth: For me it is the stars at night, their clarity and brightness. At heart I am Deaf Smith wearing Hart Schaffner and Marx We moved to Idaho from South Florida where you can barely see the moon because of ambient light and humidity. In Idaho we would take the girls out into the desert at night so they actually see stars. Here in Texas star gazing isn't as bad as S. Florida but not as good as Idaho. However if you want to really see stars, the best I ever saw was in the middle of Iowa away from towns in a field when the temp was about -20. The air is so clear and crisp you can see forever. We went out there especially to see the Hale Bopp comet. |
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Post by Beth on May 28, 2015 12:50:20 GMT -6
Beth, He was continuously dispersing his forces, more often than not after probing and not awaiting the reaction. Inexplicable. WO Isn't that inexplicableness of Custer's actions one of the things that makes LBH still interesting all this time later? If we could understand why Custer did what he did, there wouldn't be much to talk about. Sometimes I get the mental image of Custer poking and poking a line of wasp nests to see if anything was inside, but not waiting to see what the answer was until he finally turned around and found out ever nest was full of wasps and they were now really, really annoyed at him for the poke. |
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jaguar
Junior Member
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Post by jaguar on May 28, 2015 13:28:02 GMT -6
Fred: wasn't the "Greasy Grass" tall enough at the time of LBH to conceal the Indians as they maneuvered toward Reno and Benteen in their defensive position? What is the other name for this grass?
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Post by fred on May 28, 2015 13:43:56 GMT -6
... wasn't the "Greasy Grass" tall enough at the time of LBH to conceal the Indians as they maneuvered toward Reno and Benteen in their defensive position? What is the other name for this grass? The grass' name is probably one of those I mentioned earlier and my best guess would be buffalo grass... but I do not really know. As for your point, absolutely... at least in regards to Reno in his timber position. On the hilltop, no, I do not think so-- at least by itself-- though there was enough sage and ground-folds to require Benteen to order a couple of charges to keep the Indians away. The advantage with defending the hilltop was in its fields of fire. Other than the bluffs they basically had a 270-degree firing angle and for the Indians to be effective they would have had to get in fairly close. Keeping them at a distance is what saved the command, something neither Keogh nor Custer were able to do. Best wishes, Fred. |
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