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Aug 14, 2014 10:13:03 GMT -6
Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2014 10:13:03 GMT -6
Henk I think we can all have different interests and reasons for being here. Myself I like the investigative part but this is one of the most contaminated sites I have ever looked at. The testimony, accounts, and translations are all over the place. That Fred is putting it in a timeline is testimony to his efforts both in gathering data and attempting to make sense of it in an orderly fashion. I am interested in the decision making. It seems we often run into personality driven opinions where the individual being studied is a hero or villain and the opinion starts from that and builds it facts list to support the personality based opinion. I have attempted to pass on to my officers the importance of decision making in a timely manner. We teach skills and have continuous skill builders which are different from tactics. They are what makes you battle ready when you put on your 782 gear and go to work. Tactics to me are the decision you make in order to apply your skills in the most effective manner. We have tactical shoots which I believe is a misnomer and I am attempting to have the name changed to skill builders. Since we pay them to show up for a tactical shoot and we always have to shoot at a tactical shoot the recognition of being in a gun fight and a tactical approach is all ready done for the officer. One day I would like to get in my truck and drive away from the range and call for back-up and see what happens. The hardest part of knowing what tactics to use is recognizing the real time situation. You have to know your in a gun fight before you can be tactical and apply your skills. Finally I am still attempting figure out what Custer thought was going on and why he did what he did. The easy answer is that it is him personally and there is no need to study this since if your not like Custer you will make the right decisions. Regards Steve Steve, As you say, we all have our reasons to be on a BLBH board. I just stumbled on the subject, looking for a complex but not too complex example of how a very demanding situation and our understanding of that situation expressed in our actions relate to each other. I just 'celebrated' my first year on these boards and intend to stay another year, expecting that posters like you, Fred and Keogh keep posting. The different points of view - for example decision making, describing the event as a organic whole in time, physical aspects like dehydration and fatigue, and the archives at the other board - all add to making the subject more rewarding than I anticipated. For 'internal' considerations like arrogance and internalized considerations like standard practice I've little, perhaps too little, patience. Best regards, Henk
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Aug 14, 2014 11:32:56 GMT -6
Post by tubman13 on Aug 14, 2014 11:32:56 GMT -6
Chuck, Henk, you both have much to offer. Enjoy each others perspective, disagree when required, enjoy the repartee, in effect celebrate those differences, in that differences can help build better understanding.
When I first came to this board I was asked if I was writing a book, my answer raised some hackles as it was an answer that amused me not others. The fact is, I could write nothing more than a novel or screen play at best. I came here to learn, not to agree or disagree with the different perspectives presented here. The fact that I did come here made my 2nd visit to the LBH battlefield much more enjoyable as well as a better learning experience.
Now as to my unsolicited advice, lighten up. The world is a dangerous place, life is too short, and I am sure you both in your own ways make the world a better place.
Regards, Tom
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Aug 14, 2014 12:15:48 GMT -6
Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2014 12:15:48 GMT -6
Chuck, Henk, you both have much to offer. Enjoy each others perspective, disagree when required, enjoy the repartee, in effect celebrate those differences, in that differences can help build better understanding. When I first came to this board I was asked if I was writing a book, my answer raised some hackles as it was an answer that amused me not others. The fact is, I could write nothing more than a novel or screen play at best. I came here to learn, not to agree or disagree with the different perspectives presented here. The fact that I did come here made my 2nd visit to the LBH battlefield much more enjoyable as well as a better learning experience. Now as to my unsolicited advice, lighten up. The world is a dangerous place, life is too short, and I am sure you both in your own ways make the world a better place. Regards, Tom Tom, It seldom happens that I really understand situations and it's not different this time - but if I have to make a guess it is just a question of not getting along. It doesn't happen often but sometimes such situations occur. How serious it is? Not serious at all! I've nothing against Quincannon and if I can trust him, and I believe I can, he has nothing against me. We just get tangled up whenever we try to communicate. If Quincannon reads this I hope he doesn't take it as another insult - but it's kind of funny the way to old guys cannot have a decent conversation. Best regards, Henk
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Aug 14, 2014 16:22:24 GMT -6
Post by mac on Aug 14, 2014 16:22:24 GMT -6
Henk Welcome! I enjoy reading you thoughts. Here is the issue. "internalized considerations like standard practice I've little, perhaps too little, patience" Standard practice is absolutely vital to understand if one is to deal in any sensible way with this mystery. One cannot study the military and their actions without understanding the methods they have used and trained in for thousands of years. Those who have devoted their working lives to training and teaching these principles, I am not one, will rightly feel offended when you cast their knowledge, and training as being outdated, funny, or of little use.
I doubt this was your intention.
If you want to understand a battle you first need to undertand how a soldier thinks, and this is shaped by his training, programming if you will. In my view the best commanders have that training and the wit to be creative as the situation demands. Cheers
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Aug 14, 2014 18:51:14 GMT -6
Post by Dark Cloud on Aug 14, 2014 18:51:14 GMT -6
Hevat,
Tuchman's prejudice was not just the one easily imagined, but earlier. Her family was from Germany, before her great grandfather emigrated to New York. Her grandfather Morgenthau was ambassador to Turkey, and when she was three her parents and herself went to visit just as WWI broke out. She witnessed the sea battle between the Royal Navy and the Goeben on the way in, but had no actual memory of that herself. But once in Turkey and Germans came aboard and questioned her parents rather demandingly about the battle, although polite but having no real authority to do so. Very insistent. That didn't endear them to the folks and that trickled down, I'd imagine. Of course, the war to end all wars and the next one solidified their feelings, I'd suspect. Did for most of Europe, not just those who were Jewish. Belgium, Holland, France, Russia, England, lots of folks had rather become annoyed with Germany over time.
It's cool today that Germany is where she always wanted to be: the Center of Europe, highly respected, and generally well liked and admired. It has nothing to do with her military, although nobody would screw around with her either. Her absorption of the East was remarkable and successful beyond imagining. They stepped up and took responsibility and faced into the wind, something Japan still struggles with.
The Kaiser never got that the Kaiser was the problem. Although his father would have been a good thing.
Her coverage of the Great War was very fair and accurate, I thought. The Kaiser was borderline brilliant and borderline insane, both, and surrounded by yes men of the first water, his fantasies pretty much guaranteed WWI. Germany had no need for a Navy at that time, and that's what ensured conflict in the manner it presented.
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Aug 15, 2014 4:29:35 GMT -6
Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2014 4:29:35 GMT -6
Henk Welcome! I enjoy reading you thoughts. Here is the issue. "internalized considerations like standard practice I've little, perhaps too little, patience" Standard practice is absolutely vital to understand if one is to deal in any sensible way with this mystery. One cannot study the military and their actions without understanding the methods they have used and trained in for thousands of years. Those who have devoted their working lives to training and teaching these principles, I am not one, will rightly feel offended when you cast their knowledge, and training as being outdated, funny, or of little use. I doubt this was your intention. If you want to understand a battle you first need to undertand how a soldier thinks, and this is shaped by his training, programming if you will. In my view the best commanders have that training and the wit to be creative as the situation demands. Cheers Mac, Thanks for your welcome. You have an interesting point. The same could be said of internal considerations. We cannot completely discount someone's psychological make-up, not in everyday life, let alone in a very demanding situation. The same goes for the routines we have made our own. We have learned to deal with difficult and potentially dangerous situations, in traffic for example, without even realizing what we are doing. If I understand you correctly, that's what you are referring to, at least when I add that in the military one has to achieve the same but within a collective. I appreciate it very much that you are willing to accept that I was not referring to this kind of training, the one Steve is an expert in. The internalized rules I was referring to are of the same order as traffic rules. A very demanding situation is in my opinion one in which we cannot take the (traffic) rules for granted. To go one step further: it's a situation in which we would have to explain ourselves even if we are following the rules. In case of the BLBH, and just as an example and not as a statement of what actually happened, envelopment may have been the rule in the Indian Wars but this fact cannot - I'm inclined to write this in capitals - explain why Custer under the circumstances decided that he would do the same. Best regards, Henk
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Aug 15, 2014 5:43:49 GMT -6
Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 15, 2014 5:43:49 GMT -6
There are various reasons why Custer and his men perished, and the buck stops with him, but from the time he separated from Reno and moved over the bluffs, you have to empty your mind of all the stuff you have read and take into consideration these three points;
1/Custer thought the village would scatter and only rear guard or screens would be fought.
2/he was confident enough to split his command virtually into four, which again tells us that he was expecting nothing that he and around 350 men could handle.
3/he didn’t have clue what was going on from leaving Reno up till the bottom of MTC or even later, apart from the view from 3411 he was virtually blind and unaware of anything happening around him.
Ian.
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Aug 15, 2014 8:00:47 GMT -6
Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2014 8:00:47 GMT -6
DC,
After WWII until now Germany has had an exceptional good leadership (regardless of the party in power). Merkel is one of the very best. As a result we feel completely at home over there when we visit our son - a vast difference from how I felt in the days I lived in Germany in the late 50s.
As you perhaps know the WWI is heavily debated in Germany at the moment, in particular who/what caused the war. There are the revisionists on one side, who believe that it's time to look at what happened from some distance, and there are the conservatives, one could also say moralists, who believe in principle that Germany has to take full responsibility.
I don't know what your position would be, but I am a fierce opponent of moralism in anything but human interactions … As to the Kaiser, we took good care of him here in Holland - till now. It seems that his small castle in Doorn is the cause of an embarrassing problem: are the heirs or the Dutch state the owner? Eventually all greatness ends in pettiness. Whether that is a rather comforting thought … ?
Best regards, Henk
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Aug 15, 2014 8:10:44 GMT -6
Post by quincannon on Aug 15, 2014 8:10:44 GMT -6
Well it is obvious that not all agree that Fort Benning, Georgia is the center of western civilization, cultural capitol of the known universe, and a center of learning rivaled only by Harvard, Oxford and Cambridge. What a pity. One trip to the I Bar or a spiritual reawakening at Harmony Church would cure all that I am sure. Ian however seems to have been baptized by proxy in the sacred waters of the Chattahoochee so I will comment on his above pronouncements.
1) It is not what one thinks the enemy will do. Only what they are capable of doing matters. Score 1 for Ian.
2) Confidence is a good thing. Overconfidence is a bad thing. The good one must never lead to the bad one. Score another one for yourself Ian.
3) Not having a clue in military parlance is called a loss of situational awareness. Custer misplaced that when he crossed the divide. He momentarily gained it again at 3411, then stumbledicked again as he approached Medicine Tail Coulee. Ian you hit the trifecta.
All three are grave sins, grave to the point of fatality and finality, and from which there is no recovery once inside the spiral of self delusion.
Bravo Zulu Ian
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Aug 15, 2014 8:38:11 GMT -6
Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 15, 2014 8:38:11 GMT -6
Why thank you Chuck, it’s what we refer to over here as a “Hat-trick” or if you are an uncouth Soccer Fan, “In the back of the net my son”.
But seriously though, Custer separated and mounted the bluffs, he had no view of his objective until 3411, then he disappeared again out of view, only to re-appear at the bottom of MTC, so apart from a long distance look-see at the village, he may as well been in a black hole, as most of his movement was down in coulees, so add this to the notion that he would be confident that they would all run and “bingo” a recipe for disaster.
Ian.
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Aug 15, 2014 8:52:43 GMT -6
Post by Yan Taylor on Aug 15, 2014 8:52:43 GMT -6
Henk I am about to leave for my afternoon job so I will be brief, are we talking about when he split with Reno? If so then look at it from this perspective, he had left behind a pack train, he then orders Benteen to take the left, so doing this Custer had detached around 250 men, so that leaves him around 350 for any attack, now why would he attack a village with this force if he was not in any way confident.
I will take this up with you again, if not later then tomorrow. Ian.
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Aug 15, 2014 9:20:46 GMT -6
Post by Deleted on Aug 15, 2014 9:20:46 GMT -6
Ian,
I've deleted my post. Quincannon was first, and we have an agreement.
Best regards, Henk
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Aug 15, 2014 9:23:48 GMT -6
Post by Dark Cloud on Aug 15, 2014 9:23:48 GMT -6
That Germany debates it is the good thing. We 'debate' the Civil War here, sorta, but it's just rah-rah my state more than anything but still has decided racist elements. I think the ability to not put all national prestige into the military while still maintaining an excellent one is the big change, going back to the Great Elector. Germany has risen above the trivial and ironic machismo ethic that enriched and destroyed her twice. She is remarkable in many ways.
If Doorn was given to the Kaiser at his second marriage legally, then to the heirs legally, but if it was a lender, no. The heirs should, but probably will not, publicly give the home back as thanks to the one nation that would take him. Also, Germany can be said to owe Holland, and it would be a gesture that even the very Catholic conservative wingnut French aristocracy and royal heirs have grasped. Sorta.
That France and Germany are not forever on the brink of war is one of the great improvements of civilization and rarely remarked upon today. Credit both, aided by the American Pax. Nobody is impressed with how Europe did not handle the breakup of Yugoslavia, and that it still followed the issues that caused The Great War was very disturbing.
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Aug 15, 2014 10:09:09 GMT -6
Post by quincannon on Aug 15, 2014 10:09:09 GMT -6
Again Ian I find you are on the money. One does not have to understand the inner workings of a man's mind to look at what happened, and familiarize oneself with the prevailing attitudes of the day which are well documented in letters, diaries, written orders, and conversations later reported on.
Indians would run: Well they always had, sort of. I can see where such an attitude would prevail, and couple that with this superiority of the races nonsense, it is not hard to imagine that Custer, and all the rest thought that is exactly what would occur, once the presence of the 7th Cavalry was detected. They had the capability though of both running and fighting, and the latter was completely discounted. In battle you discount nothing. Every capability is always on the table. Always. Hoping for the best is of little value if you do not first plan for the worst. Enemy capabilities trump your evaluation of enemy intentions every time.
Confidence-Overconfidence: Confidence is the dividend of hard training. Confidence built upon a notion of superiority is a house of cards, a castle in the sand. Overconfidence is a mortal sin in the military, just as it is in other walks of life. There is never reason or excuse for overconfidence. Overconfidence was on display here by the deliberate division of forces in the face of the enemy, and an uncertain situation, into small, unsustainable by themselves, packages.
Situational Awareness: It is impossible to be aware of the situation if you place yourself in a position where you cannot exercise command. Custer placed himself in such a position.
3 more in your in box Ian 30-31-32. If I have time this afternoon I will get 33 and 34 to you.
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Aug 15, 2014 11:00:52 GMT -6
Post by quincannon on Aug 15, 2014 11:00:52 GMT -6
Try not to crucify yourself on the cross of correctness Hevat. If you have a question for Ian, or wish to delve deeper into something he said, do so.
I am not into self crucifixion myself and I assure you I will, regardless of who is on first.
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