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Gasp!
Aug 13, 2014 9:12:06 GMT -6
Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2014 9:12:06 GMT -6
Barbara Tuchman was prejudiced against Germans, go figure. You'd not notice that in Guns of August, but she knew it and announced it in books and was so concerned that she not be unfair she may have overcompensated. Whatever way is chosen to view that, I think it superior to, say, the often clearly prejudiced and sometimes idiotic books about the Civil War in this nation, north and south. Starting with Freeman, southerners have tried to install the belief that slavery was not the issue, but rather states rights. Seems more civilized and all. But Lee, Davis, Stephens, and tons of those in the Confederate government said the war was about slavery in their own hand. This is often just ignored when presented. Our Admiral Halsey (there was a British one) hated the Japanese and that permeates all his writing, but nobody could be so dense as to miss it. That alone doesn't negate his writing (his lies don't help) and importance to history. The point being that prejudice is only dangerously bad when hidden. Or, attempted to be hidden. Exactly! BTW, how could Tuchman not have been prejudiced? Best regards, Henk
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Gasp!
Aug 13, 2014 9:33:22 GMT -6
Post by AZ Ranger on Aug 13, 2014 9:33:22 GMT -6
The book as Gordie had it was to large to publish. The eBook contains a lot more source material but is only available in that electronic version. I purchased a kindle to be able to view it. The orginal book appears to have green cover and the eBook a blue or purple looking color. The eBook contains what was cut from Gordie's original.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Gasp!
Aug 13, 2014 9:42:41 GMT -6
Post by quincannon on Aug 13, 2014 9:42:41 GMT -6
When are decisions correct? When those decisions accomplish the mission, and that mission is dictated by circumstance. Doing the right thing, because it is right, knowing full well it may not be popular, and may very well be adverse or in direct disobedience or disregard for orders previously received. Being able to access an ever changing situation and formulate your actions and orders accordingly. Doing what makes sense to do. Those are the standards I use and was trained to use, and I have scant use for lily livered fops of a latter day, who do not know B from a bulls butt about leadership and command, moralizing over decisions or being critical of those who had to make them then and there.
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Gasp!
Aug 13, 2014 9:43:44 GMT -6
Post by Dark Cloud on Aug 13, 2014 9:43:44 GMT -6
Got it. Puttering through it. My first Kindle read. Takes getting used to.
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Gasp!
Aug 13, 2014 9:47:42 GMT -6
Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2014 9:47:42 GMT -6
When are decisions correct? When those decisions accomplish the mission, and that mission is dictated by circumstance. Doing the right thing, because it is right, knowing full well it may not be popular, and may very well be adverse or in direct disobedience or disregard for orders previously received. Being able to access an ever changing situation and formulate your actions and orders accordingly. Doing what makes sense to do. Those are the standards I use and was trained to use, and I have scant use for lily livered fops of a latter day, who do not know B from a bulls butt about leadership and command, moralizing over decisions or being critical of those who had to make them then and there. LOL! So that is what it is to be without prejudice? Best regards, Henk
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Aug 13, 2014 9:52:09 GMT -6
Post by quincannon on Aug 13, 2014 9:52:09 GMT -6
Is LOL a weasel word expression for you not understanding?
In the event you do not understand. You may be here for a wide variety of reasons. I hope being anyone's fan boy is not one of them. I am here to examine only the tactical part of this battle, decisions made and not made, correct and incorrect, based upon my understanding of sound tactical principles. I am not here to wave anyone's pennant, to slobber over personalities, either good or bad. As already stated, as persons I have a certain distaste for one and all equally. My distaste however does not in any way effect my judgment about their actions. All made grave errors of judgment. All did some good things as well, some more than others. I judge them on their actions alone, and have little to no interest in examining their personalities, save that of Custer, whom I think was immature in his personal life, and that immaturity, along with his lack of experience at the appropriate level caused him to make the mistakes he made.
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Gasp!
Aug 13, 2014 10:07:11 GMT -6
Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2014 10:07:11 GMT -6
Is LOL a weasel word expression for you not understanding? Well, I hoped you were young enough, at least at heart, to know that it stands for "Laughing Out Loud". The post reminded me of an encounter more than half a century ago. It made me laugh. If you can keep yourself from stretching them, I'll try not stand on your toes next time.
Best regards, Henk
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Gasp!
Aug 13, 2014 10:11:11 GMT -6
Post by quincannon on Aug 13, 2014 10:11:11 GMT -6
I know what it means, and when I say something with an attempt at humor LOL is a welcome response. When I talk about my profession, I find nothing funny about it. It is far to serious to be funny. Was there anything funny about having grave tactical errors of omission and commission be the cause of 210 men dying needlessly? No. I didn't think so.
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Gasp!
Aug 13, 2014 10:43:12 GMT -6
Post by Deleted on Aug 13, 2014 10:43:12 GMT -6
I know what it means, and when I say something with an attempt at humor LOL is a welcome response. When I talk about my profession, I find nothing fully about it. It is far to serious to be funny. Was there anything funny about having grave tactical errors of omission and commission be the cause of 210 men dying needlessly. No. I didn't think so. Hmmm. The reason why I post on this list is a very simple one: I wanted to congratulate Fred with his book and stayed, till now. I don't spit on graves, but that's as far as it goes for me. To be absolutely clear, I respect authority when it proves itself, not when it presents itself as such. Your post on "correctness" (not the earlier one) was below par, it was routine stuff - and I would be seriously disappointed in you if you didn't know that yourself. To conclude, we don't seem to get on well. Shall we take a deep breath and go our own ways? I'm sure that I have a lot to learn from Fred and I've always been a fan of DC. [I left the weasily grin out.] Best regards, Henk
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Aug 13, 2014 11:08:51 GMT -6
Post by quincannon on Aug 13, 2014 11:08:51 GMT -6
Personally I don't care what you do.
You misinterpret authority. Montrose is an authority. I make no such claim. I apply the training I have received.
In addition I don't really care if you are disappointed. That is your concern and none of my own. I say what I think, and require no one's permission to do so, nor do I require their approval. If you don't like what I say it is your problem.
As far as getting on, I have nothing whatsoever against you. What you will not do in my presence without being told about it though is to make light in any way shape or form about my profession, or my Army. You can be critical of both as much as you wish, for I am as well, but it is never a subject in my presence for scorn or laughter. I trust you know the difference between the two.
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Aug 14, 2014 5:04:39 GMT -6
Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2014 5:04:39 GMT -6
… I apply the training I have received. ... As far as getting on, I have nothing whatsoever against you. What you will not do in my presence without being told about it though is to make light in any way shape or form about my profession, or my Army. You can be critical of both as much as you wish, for I am as well, but it is never a subject in my presence for scorn or laughter. I trust you know the difference between the two.Hmmm. That may be the reason why we don’t get along. I’m not interested in your training. As to your profession, I have no idea what that is and I couldn't care less. Probalby you are referring to the fact that you have been a soldier. It escapes me why you are so sensitive about that. Here on the continent we have a great literary tradition highlighting the tragicomical as well as the gruesome sides of it and I care for that tradition. As to your present day Army, it isn’t a subject that interests me as such, only as a political instrument, implying that I wouldn’t even know how to make light of it even if I wanted to. Best regards, Henk
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Aug 14, 2014 5:36:46 GMT -6
Post by AZ Ranger on Aug 14, 2014 5:36:46 GMT -6
I agree DC. I first tried eBook on my iphone5 and that was not a pleasant experience. The kindle is a little more friendly and easier to use but its not a book.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Aug 14, 2014 6:13:15 GMT -6
Post by AZ Ranger on Aug 14, 2014 6:13:15 GMT -6
Henk
I think we can all have different interests and reasons for being here. Myself I like the investigative part but this is one of the most contaminated sites I have ever looked at. The testimony, accounts, and translations are all over the place. That Fred is putting it in a timeline is testimony to his efforts both in gathering data and attempting to make sense of it in an orderly fashion. I am interested in the decision making. It seems we often run into personality driven opinions where the individual being studied is a hero or villain and the opinion starts from that and builds it facts list to support the personality based opinion.
I have attempted to pass on to my officers the importance of decision making in a timely manner. We teach skills and have continuous skill builders which are different from tactics. They are what makes you battle ready when you put on your 782 gear and go to work. Tactics to me are the decision you make in order to apply your skills in the most effective manner. We have tactical shoots which I believe is a misnomer and I am attempting to have the name changed to skill builders. Since we pay them to show up for a tactical shoot and we always have to shoot at a tactical shoot the recognition of being in a gun fight and a tactical approach is all ready done for the officer. One day I would like to get in my truck and drive away from the range and call for back-up and see what happens. The hardest part of knowing what tactics to use is recognizing the real time situation. You have to know your in a gun fight before you can be tactical and apply your skills.
Finally I am still attempting figure out what Custer thought was going on and why he did what he did. The easy answer is that it is him personally and there is no need to study this since if your not like Custer you will make the right decisions.
Regards
Steve
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Aug 14, 2014 8:05:07 GMT -6
Post by quincannon on Aug 14, 2014 8:05:07 GMT -6
Hevat. I owe you an answer, and you will be given one.
I took you comments as an insult, a personal insult. You may not have meant it to be, or perhaps you did. It matters not either way.
The solution is for you to avoid me, and what I have to say, and I will do the same for you.
I would remind you though that we are not on "your continent" at least I am not, and we here on "our continent" may have a slightly different way of looking at things.
Now if you wish to continue by starting each post with Hmmm, which in itself is insulting and demeaning then please continue, but not on my dime brother. On the other hand if you wish to drop all the continental bushwa and literary tradition horse hockey, and discuss these things on a level playing field I would be most interested in what you have to say.
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Aug 14, 2014 8:43:43 GMT -6
Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2014 8:43:43 GMT -6
Quincannon,
I almost started again with a Hmmm but since you find even that insulting I'll refrain from doing so. For the rest, I accept your proposal: we go our own ways. Best regards, Henk
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