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Post by lew on Apr 10, 2014 9:05:48 GMT -6
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Post by quincannon on Apr 10, 2014 9:09:14 GMT -6
Now Ian I am going to call on my dear friends Slim and Dusty to illustrate the differences between a flank attack and an envelopment. Don't know about you but my first exposure to tactics was in the Grade B cowboy movies of the 1940,, black and white oaters, of other than a tactical introduction, had no other redeeming value. Here's how Slim and Dusty might have illustrated these things
DEFENSE: Slim says to Dusty: Dusty we gotta hold 'um at the crick, cause iffen we don't them varmits will get across and get to the ranch house where they will kidnap Sweet Sister Sue, steal her gold, run off the cow critters and take a pee in the campfire coffee.
ENVELOPMENT: Slim says to Dusty: Dusty them varmits are hole up in the saloon, and they have Sweet Sister Sue tied up in the back room. I am going to mosey down to the crick , work my way around that there hill and come up behind 'em. Ifin they catch wind of me coming to rescue Sweet Sister Sue and turn around, you back shoot 'em.
FLANK ATTACK: Slim says to Dusty: Dusty them varmits are hole up in the saloon. You keep'um busy, and I am going over to that side winder (that means window in this instance Sidewinder is a rather nasty breed of rattlesnake for those of us here in the Golden West) and shoot those coyotes in the ear.
So Sayeth Slim and Dusty.
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Post by lew on Apr 10, 2014 9:14:00 GMT -6
HEADQUARTERS ARMY OF NORTHERN VIRGINIA. GENERAL ORDERS, NO. 63. MAY 14, 1863.
The practice which prevails in the Army of including in the list of casualties those cases of slight injuries which do not incapacitate the recipients for duty, is calculated to mislead our friends, and encourage our enemies, by giving false impressions as to the extent of our losses. The loss sustained by a brigade or regiment is by no means an indication of the service performed or perils encountered, as experience shows that those who attack most rapidly, vigorously, and effectually generally suffer the least. It is, therefore, ordered that in future the reports of the wounded shall only include those whose injuries, in the opinion of the medical officers, render them unfit for duty. It has also been observed that the published reports of casualties are in some instances accompanied by a statement of the number of men taken into action. The commanding general deems it unnecessary to do more than direct the attention of officers to the impropriety of thus furnishing the enemy with the means of computing our strength, in order to insure the immediate suppression of this pernicious and useless custom.
By command of General Lee. W.H. TAYLOR, Assistant Adjutant-General.
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Post by lew on Apr 10, 2014 9:21:43 GMT -6
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Post by lew on Apr 10, 2014 9:24:35 GMT -6
Click on the 221.pdf for regimental strength at Gettysburg
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Post by lew on Apr 10, 2014 9:26:19 GMT -6
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Post by Yan Taylor on Apr 10, 2014 9:49:34 GMT -6
Gotcha Chuck, Hancock’s envelopment is shown pretty fine on this map, with Burnside holding the front. Thanks Lew, I am like a kid in a sweetshop (candy store) when I get such a wealth info. Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 10, 2014 10:00:43 GMT -6
That's Spotsylvania Ian. Try and see if you can find a map of the movements between the Wilderness which if off the map to the top and the crossroads at Spotsylvania Courthouse.
What you should see on any such map is Grant turning wide around Lee's right and down the Brock Road. Lee is displaced but takes the shorter route to Spotsylvania on a road I cannot remember the name of.
It was Confederate Cavalry disputing Sheridan on the Brock Road that gave the time to Lee, and it was Anderson, commanding I Corps in place of a wounded Longstreet that got set up at Spotsylvania just ahead of the arrival of Union troops.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Apr 10, 2014 11:44:55 GMT -6
Chuck, this is a better map; A couple of what looks like Brigades (Heth & Mahone) from Early’s Division have swung round to counter Hancock’s thrust over the PO River. Graphic stuff "The Battle at Spotsylvania"
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Post by quincannon on Apr 10, 2014 11:51:41 GMT -6
Ian I think you need a map showing an earlier phase. It should have Union forces coming down the Brock Road from Todd's Tavern. and Confederate forces slipping in front of the Union force but coming from the left side of the map. You need one showing movements from late afternoon of 7 May until early morning 9 May.
Last time I was at Spotsylvania Court House my son and I stood on that very spot depicted in the painting.
Speaking of maps and referring to my earlier exploits with Slim and Dusty. There is a three map set available from the NPS bookstore at Gettysburg, that would make the viewers of Slim and Dusty on the silver screen get so excited that their Spearmint Leaves would commingle with their butter pop corn in sheer delight, They do mail order. I bought a set for my dad many years ago and I can still see him today poring over those three maps for hours.
I am damned sure glad you got me onto this theme of maps, bookstores and such. When my computer was down the other day it had been my intention to check out the on line bookstore of the National Museum of the U S Marine Corps at Quantico This discussion reminded me of that and I just did. They have the complete 5 volume operational history of the USMC in Korea for $137, a very reasonable price. Steve would do back flips at the books and other goodies available. Will have to mention it to him
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Post by Yan Taylor on Apr 10, 2014 12:26:37 GMT -6
Yes Chuck, I get it now, you are after the Cavalry actions on the 7th.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 10, 2014 13:02:36 GMT -6
Exactly Ian: Stuart discovered that move by Grant on the 7th and imposed himself between Spotsylvania and Grant on the Brock Road at Piney Branch Church and Todd's.
Notice how Anderson is side slipping Grant on the shorter route.
Cavalry is always at its best when it operates, as Stuart did, in conjunction with a larger main battle force. It can do wonderful things for you, and provide a wall which you can hide behind until you are ready to appear. Such was the case here.
I find that cavalry is next to useless operating on its own or as a main battle force. It's strengths while performing the cavalry function of screen, guard, and reconnoiter, are not nearly so strong when on their own. To me the balanced all arms force beats hell out of any other way to employ them. Mind you now, I don't consider armor (tanks) with mech infantry as being cavalry, or fit to function as such. You will note by organizational construct those mobile forces always have cavalry to front and flank. Armor and mechanized infantry are nothing more than a more mobile main battle force, and sometimes they are not nearly as mobile as straight dismounted infantry. They carry to much tail, and not nearly enough teeth to be a one size fits all solution to all tactical and operational problems.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Apr 11, 2014 2:26:33 GMT -6
I don’t know how large those two rivers are (Ni & Po) but they look like they provided Lee with hard flanks especially against Cavalry (all the units are mounted), Lee looks like he split into two battle groups* each containing two Brigades. Catharpin Road had to be held to prevent the capture of Corbin’s Bridge and the Town and it looks like Gordon and Young’s Group did just that. The Wickham and Lomax Group had to fall back on Alsop to secure the Brock Road.
*if these Groups are Divisions then smaller units could be Brigades, Regiments or even Squadrons.
Chuck, when I war gammed this period (1800 to 1918), I used to be frustrated at the lack of speed that my units could travel over the field, I found that when I tried any bold Infantry moves to out flank my opponent, he used to counter my move by moving up a reserve or wheeling his force around to counter act my move, because if you try to move a couple of Line Regiments over open terrain, they are going to stand out like a sore thumb and are pretty ponderous, now travel forward in time to WW2, we are Wargamming say North Africa 1942, I could sweep around my opponent with a battle group of Grenadiers in APCs plus Armoured Cars and Medium Tanks, even mobile artillery and AT Guns. I had some successful victories back then.
Ian.
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Post by quincannon on Apr 11, 2014 9:03:20 GMT -6
Ian by the time of the Wilderness Stuart's cavalry division, that is so well known to history in 62 and 63 has been split into a corps and those are two divisions under Hampton and Fitzhugh Lee, and Stuart the first Cavalry Corps commander. So Hampton and Fitz Lee on that map represent divisions, while the others represent brigades. Now keep in mind they were about as much divisions and brigades as Custer's 7th was a full up regiment. These guys kept everyone "on the books" and the muster roles are filled with dismounted men, and men gone home in search of a new horse or horse furniture, most of the time both. So while Larry may have strength figures for these various units during the Overland Campaign, they would be numbers I would highly suspect, in that I think them padded to include total membership and not present for duty strength. He may surprise me and have the present for duty, but I cannot fathom how those numbers can be determined from the data available, not that someone has not tried, so maybe Larry will surprise me again as he has before.
That part of Virginia a belt of land from a few miles south of Washington all the way to Richmond in those days was notable for swamps, what we called "wait a minute vines", very, very dense growth of timber, and particularly viscous copperheads and water mocassins. Every so often you would run across cleared area where farms, a country church, or tavern, or perhaps even a very small village lay by the roadside. It is horrible country for both offense and defense. Small units can block the progress of much larger ones very easily, and from May to September it is combination oven and steam bath.
In 1941 the U S Army purchased a very large tract of this land bounded by Fredericksburg, Port Royal, and Bowling Green, all three figuring prominently in the campaigns of 62. This land became Fort A P Hill. It is still nearly like that land campaigned over in the civil war. When purchased it was still an extremely rural area. A. P Hill contains the site of Jackson's winter camps (along with entrenchments still visible) of 62. The famed snowball fight of Jackson's Corps took place on its border on a farm owned by a former Adjutant General of Virginia, Jack Castle (who was the guy who pinned the Army Commendation Medal on me in front of portraits of Lee and Jackson, the picture I never showed my father), There is even the little village of Mica, and the country church down a winding lane that both Jackson and Stuart had attended. Mica is no more than eight houses and a schoolhouse.
This is one hell of a place to fight a damned war. Slight advantage in all respect to the defenders, but not all that much.
Today A. P. Hill is a major training area for all components of the Army and the other services as well. It is often you see, well let's say see people you would not expect to see who are reluctant to discuss their presence with you.
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Post by tubman13 on Apr 12, 2014 5:22:20 GMT -6
In 1941 the U S Army purchased a very large tract of this land bounded by Fredericksburg, Port Royal, and Bowling Green, all three figuring prominently in the campaigns of 62. This land became Fort A P Hill. It is still nearly like that land campaigned over in the civil war. When purchased it was still an extremely rural area. A. P Hill contains the site of Jackson's winter camps (along with entrenchments still visible) of 62. The famed snowball fight of Jackson's Corps took place on its border on a farm owned by a former Adjutant General of Virginia, Jack Castle (who was the guy who pinned the Army Commendation Medal on me in front of portraits of Lee and Jackson, the picture I never showed my father), There is even the little village of Mica, and the country church down a winding lane that both Jackson and Stuart had attended. Mica is no more than eight houses and a schoolhouse. This is one hell of a place to fight a damned war. Slight advantage in all respect to the defenders, but not all that much. Today A. P. Hill is a major training area for all components of the Army and the other services as well. It is often you see, well let's say see people you would not expect to see who are reluctant to discuss their presence with you. Chuck, Ft. A.P. Hill roughly 40,000 acres, 5min from me. We have found buttons, harmonica frame, and horseshoes on my 45 acres. A neighbor found a cannon ball just 3 years ago. The little burg I live in is called Milford, once called Milford Station, a rail stop on the old RF&P. Two major skirmishes took place here. The second was part of the advance south you are discussing. The Union commander was Hancock. 10 Min west of here Lee cut off Grant at the North Anna, some say this was the first action of Cold Harbor. I have canoed through the center of this battlefield, the heights Lee commanded were a tuff area to pry him loose from.
J.W. Booth was killed on property that is now part of Ft. A.P. Hill.
Ian, re. Spotsy. look up Bloody Angle.
Regards, Tom
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