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Post by tubman13 on Mar 25, 2014 13:52:28 GMT -6
ANYWAY, AT THE END OF THOSE TWO SCOUTS THE SERIOUS PLANNING BEGINS.
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Post by Dark Cloud on Mar 25, 2014 13:57:17 GMT -6
Just like the MOH meant nothing compared to what it means today - it was given for re-enlisting at least once - so does the term "doctor." Aside from the key to the opiates, the scouts could probably do as well. These were not Hawkeyes and Trapper Johns. They were trained in medicine about as well as the 7th was trained in firearm fire from moving mount, saber combat, Tai Kwon Do, and Meditation.
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Post by fred on Mar 25, 2014 13:58:20 GMT -6
Washita Fred is the very reason for an armed reconnaissance vice a look see and scoot. That whole area out there was and should have been a vital area of interest for Custer. If is was not he was a much bigger doofus than what I already think. Exactly! Again, I agree 100%. That half-brained "rosebud" has to be involved in it, I'll bet. I have deleted the entire site from my log-in so I don't even bother to look any more. Let me tell you, that's a guy with a real serious problem! He's probably shimmying onto his local buddies, you know those guys who all live within 50 miles of the battlefield and therefore know everything there is to know about the battle... osmosis. Even "keogh" must be spinning with that ass around. Personally, I developed my speeds, distances, and probabilities from pros like AZ Ranger and people who know horses, not from some sway-backed plug used to crapping on the front veranda. And they are not vastly different from "keogh's." Rini has done some good work in that area and his conclusions are reasonable. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 25, 2014 13:58:20 GMT -6
I am sure that the terrain over bluffs did him, he and Bouyer totally misjudged the amount of time it would take to get around this village with this type of move, and when he arrived he found that it took him an hour and the place was much much larger than expected, and to top all this Reno had not been able to hold out for this length of time.
Ian.
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Post by fred on Mar 25, 2014 14:00:45 GMT -6
... Benteen had no medical staff and as far as I know (but I may be wrong) he also had no Scouts! He had one, a Ree. At least for a short time. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by crzhrs on Mar 25, 2014 14:08:22 GMT -6
So would we say Benteen's orders were more of a probe rather than a attack order or both? Feel along, communicate what you see and/or hit Indians but if you see nothing keep going until when? I applaud Benteen's decision to cut off his advancement and it was only happen chance that Martini ran into Benteen on his way back otherwise Martini could have kept riding until he got killed. Just wondering if Benteen kept going and didn't reinforce Reno, what would have been Reno's outcome? Or would Custer's approach have caused the warriors to leave Reno regardless?
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Post by fred on Mar 25, 2014 14:08:33 GMT -6
Chuck and others I invite, critique here. Custer sent Benteen off to scout the ridges and valleys... in the direction of the LBH, with the ultimate objective of seeing up the LBH valley to make sure it was clear. If he ran into opposition, Benteen was to attack it and send back word. Reno-- on the left bank of the creek-- and Custer-- on the right bank-- moved downstream toward the LBH valley. He had Varnum and some Rees out to the front left; Hare, with some more Rees and the Crows, was to the right front. Varnum was on high ground, Hare couldn't get up to the high ground. At the lone tepee-- about 1.7 miles from the river-- Custer gave Reno orders to attack. Nothing fancy, just attack. And by the way, Marcus, send out ten men in advance and here's LT Hare to lead them. Pull them back when you are sure there's nothing to your front that might surprise you. And George Yates, I want six men out front doing the same thing for our two battalions. My guess it was Vickory-Groesback in charge. A seasoned vet. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Mar 25, 2014 14:12:49 GMT -6
...when Custer was on the crow’s nest and looked towards the area of the supposed Indian village, could he have been mistaken in trying to pin point the exact place... Ian... who knows? It seems to me the only Doubting Thomas in the group was GAC. Everyone else seemed to be pretty convinced the village was where it proved to be. Correct. The concern, however, was with the valleys leading into the main trail. They lay perpendicular to the trail and were masked by the ridges that formed them. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Mar 25, 2014 14:16:19 GMT -6
They were trained in medicine about as well as the 7th was trained in firearm fire from moving mount, saber combat, Tai Kwon Do, and Meditation. Harvard, Georgetown, and Northwestern might take issue with you on that. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 25, 2014 14:18:52 GMT -6
Tom: All my bullshit and bluster about Benteen's armed reconnaissance is about to come back and haunt me. Won't be the first time. I am far from virgin in that regard.
What you are doing here is soliciting an opinion on how this attack should have been conducted, or more to the point how each of us see that conduct, how we would have done it. I will place my head therefore on the chopping block awaiting the axe. I don't think you far off. Would yours have worked? Probably.
Here's mine:
At the divide I would have broken the trains into combat and field trains. Combat trains for immediate needs, some ammunition, medical supplies etc. The rest, the field trains would be put in a hide and lightly guarded. I would have returned the detailed men to their companies and released Company B to join its parent battalion (Yates). Therefore the field trains would be immobile, until I made them mobile again, and I would not need to concern myself with their keeping up or being in the way. If I lost them it is a risk I am willing to take. I can live off the land in extremis until I join Terry. If I can't join Terry because all mine are dead it won't matter will it.
I would then have sent a small reconnaissance patrol out in the direction Benteen went. The purpose being the gathering of information, not engagement. In fact avoid engagement at all cost. I would have further instructed that patrol on how far to go and an approximate location of their release point where they were to meet me with that information. That place must be an easily determined feature, although the country ahead is unknown. Therefore that patrol would be commanded by an officer with a compass and directions as to azimuth out and azimuth to return which if they followed my direction would be some miles ahead but located along Reno Creek. Once in possession of that information they would provide I could accordingly adjust and send a strong force to deal with anything out there. Same process, conducted in two different phases.
I would then form a march column down Reno Creek with an advance guard a mile to my front with orders to develop the situation if and when they came upon anything. At all times the advanced guard would maintain contact with the main body by means of connecting files. The rest of the column would be made as compact as humanly possible with no straggling tolerated NONE. Flank guards of no more than squad strength would be provided out a distance of 1000 meters on both sides. A rear guard of one company from the trailing battalion, back about a thousand meters. The combat trains would be positioned between the next to last and trailing battalion (a few, no more than ten led mules). Varnum, out front of the advance guard, beating bush quietly
I would determine the river crossing, which I know is in front as my PLD. Short of that river crossing PLD, if no contact had been so far stirred up. I would stop the advance guard, and send out pre-designated recon patrols much as you describe Tom, although with much more junior officers in charge, and tasked as I stated above - have a good, but quiet look see.
Based upon what I in hindsight expected they would find I would transform my advance guard into the vanguard of my attack. By the way I think Yates the best suited for this mission. That vanguard would move over the river and hug the tree line to the right leaving me plenty of room I would then follow with two more battalions that of Reno and Keogh in that order, which I intend to employ on Yates's left once he makes contact. My reserve would be in Benteen's hands and his instructions very simple - be prepared - and when I say come you better damned well come fast, and when I say go you better be there before I can think it.
All this said I believe I would be met by a screen, and the fight would be largely a draw. But a draw is all I need to accomplish my mission for a draw prevents them from scattering to the south and west into the Big Horns. If they scatter eastward the are moving between me and the reservations I want them to be going to. If they scatter north they are heading toward Terry and have placed themselves between two meat grinders.
Only my opinion, but one developed over a lot of years.
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Post by crzhrs on Mar 25, 2014 14:19:48 GMT -6
Any one want to hazzard a guess why Custer didn't send a message to Benteen once he gave the attack order to Reno? One would think Benteen would like to know that just in case he runs into hundreds of Indians fleeing from the attack.
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Post by crzhrs on Mar 25, 2014 14:21:57 GMT -6
QC: Apparently Custer missed that class at West Point!
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Post by fred on Mar 25, 2014 14:24:12 GMT -6
Any one want to hazzard a guess why Custer didn't send a message to Benteen once he gave the attack order to Reno? One would think Benteen would like to know that just in case he runs into hundreds of Indians fleeing from the attack. Therein lies the rub, doesn't it? Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 25, 2014 14:31:56 GMT -6
Horse: The information I have suggests that Custer was last in his class in Cavalry tactics at West Point. Go figure. He might have developed into a good officer given the chance to serve as a company grade officer, with the right sort of mentoring.. He might have even made Major by 1890 or so.
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 25, 2014 14:33:59 GMT -6
I think you would have developed it or something similar on 6/25/76, as would a below average 1st year student at the Point, as well as 95-98% of newly minted OCS grads. And this brings us back to the original question. Did GAG Or GAC as it were have a plan? Not so much. An officers 1st responsibility? Most of us know. Or was that not included in 1876?
Regards, Tom
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