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Post by Deleted on Mar 25, 2014 13:19:07 GMT -6
Chuck, Porter was with Reno. I think (on the hill) he asked Reno if the men were demoralized. Reno said something like: that was a charge sir!
Seems odd to me that Reno had 2 docs, Custer one and Benteen squat. Perhaps I'm in error. Best, c.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 25, 2014 13:21:22 GMT -6
Tom: I presume you are not talking about Benteen here, so I assume you must mean what could be accomplished as a total reconnaissance package. Assuming that you are correct, as long as the NA's were used as a guide for whatever that is worth and not for the actual collection of information. That needs the trained military eye, because specifics, not generalities are required. Officer led patrols of five or six, perhaps three in number, each with a good guide were all that would be required. That along with pencil and notebook. Each of these officers should be able to construct a terrain sketch. For those from West Point, trained as engineers, that would be part of their education as it is now for all combat arms officers.
Yes Chris I know he was there on the hill, but can't recall how or when he got there. Thanks though.
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Post by fred on Mar 25, 2014 13:22:49 GMT -6
What were Benteen's orders? Was it a scout? Was he sent there to find and look at or sent there to find, engage and kill? If it was the former is was a scout. If the latter an attack. All of the above. That's why it required three companies. The only attachment was that if he met with anything he was to send a message to Custer. This doesn't apply to you, QC, but people should tackle this with reason. Remember Custer's experience at the Washita: extended villages. Need to protect against that and someone climbing up his butt when he entered the LBH valley. Also, from the Crow's Nest, while the viewing was illusionary and deceiving, you could make out intervening valleys leading into the Reno Creek valley. Those intervening valleys needed to be checked out. Apparently-- according to one passed comment-- Benteen believed everything was in front of them, not up some subsidiary dale. In this case, I go with Custer's idea, but laud Benteen for cutting it when he did. I do love the smell of gunfire, however. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Mar 25, 2014 13:27:33 GMT -6
... you are forgiven this heinous crime. MUMBLE!!There... how's that? Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 25, 2014 13:29:56 GMT -6
Washita Fred is the very reason for an armed reconnaissance vice a look see and scoot. That whole area out there was and should have been a vital area of interest for Custer. If is was not he was a much bigger doofus than what I already think.
Benteen cutting it off when he did was a very good decision on his part. He had probably either covered by that time the area of interest or if not, could see the rest.
Over on the other board presently there is a discussion of distance. It will eventually end in stalemate as those things usually do over there. But distance is not the factor of interest here. The governing factor is the time it takes to cover distance. Time works both ways and in this specific regard I believe that Benteen felt, justifiably, that if there were any Indians out in that area they were beyond the time factor where they could lend any support against whatever Custer intended. Therefore with that matter settled it was time to turn and return.
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Post by fred on Mar 25, 2014 13:31:44 GMT -6
... even though the majority of Warriors had gone to Reno.... Not the majority, Ian. The majority never got into the Reno fight. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by fred on Mar 25, 2014 13:35:42 GMT -6
One would think that someone other than Benteen and the above witnesses must have heard what orders were given to Benteen but apparently no one stepped up to admit it. Horse... remember, Custer and Cooke were supposed to have stepped off to the side, a little distance away. I would guess because that's what it turned into. Nothing more. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 25, 2014 13:38:33 GMT -6
Not all armed reconnaissance evolves into a fight. In fact most don't. Such was the case here. That does not mean they were not intended to find and fight. All it means is they did not find and there was nothing to fight. That in itself is vital information and worth the efforts involved. Absence of information, after the attempt to gain, is in itself information.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 25, 2014 13:39:00 GMT -6
Yes Chuck, Reno had two Doctors in his Battalion, DeWolf and Porter. Porter rode down the valley alongside Reno and Hodgson. So Benteen had no medical staff and as far as I know (but I may be wrong) he also had no Scouts!
Ian.
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Post by fred on Mar 25, 2014 13:39:31 GMT -6
And where was he to get those medical personnel? To my knowledge all of them had been previously assigned to other elements. Lord was with Custer. DeWolfe with Reno. I can't remember where Porter was, maybe with the trains. Porter and DeWolf were both with Reno. I wouldn't read anything into the assignment of medical men except Lord. Lord was army; the other two were civilian contract surgeons. And actually, Lord was as sick as a dog but insisted on coming with Custer. Bad choice, Doc. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by tubman13 on Mar 25, 2014 13:40:48 GMT -6
Chuck and others I invite, critique here. When I leave the divide, I am not sure the village is where they said it was when we were on top of Crows Nest, but I know I am following one hell of a large trail. I call the officers together, o-call if you will. I explain we are going to continue on this trail, we are going to put flankers out on either side to protect our flanks, Varnum and his scouts will lead the way towards the river, not only to scout but also to act as advanced guard. The pack train is not, repeat not to fall behind. When we get closer to the river, we are going to send out two scouting parties. Benteen and Keogh, pick out 15 men plus yourself, one of you gets Reynolds and one of you gets Gerard you each get 5 NA's ask Varnum for the best. Once we get nearer the River, (maybe the tepee) I send one party slightly left and to the right to scope out the size of this purported village, I want both parties back here in under 2 hrs. We will remain here, so as to be able to support you. Don't engage unless attacked. Ain't hindsight great. Bare in mind, my toughest scout, was before a rapid runway deployment team, deployed.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 25, 2014 13:41:37 GMT -6
Yes, a bad choice. Sort of like a proctologist sticking his finger up a tiger's ass.
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Post by fred on Mar 25, 2014 13:46:05 GMT -6
That scout or any scout, or any 2 scouts, even to overlook the village using the ridges as a screen, could have been accomplished, with one company or 1/2 that accompanied , by 5 top NA scouts. Regiment should have been within supporting distance of those scouts. If you are referring to the Benteen scout, Tom, then what do you do with the battalion if those five scouts stumbled across Indians? Benteen sent six men plus Gibson forward to scout ahead. Custer did essentially the same thing with six or seven men from F Company once he reached the lone tepee. He ordered Reno to do the same just beyond the lone tepee, and sent Hare with him to lead them. (They don't call him Lucky Luke for nada!) Everything Custer did, up until he turned right, was sound. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Mar 25, 2014 13:46:18 GMT -6
For as long as I have been on this board, it has been known as the Benteen Scout.
Fred, now I don’t want to stray too far off course here, and up to now you have controlled things pretty well but..when Custer was on the crow’s nest and looked towards the area of the supposed Indian village, could he have been mistaken in trying to pin point the exact place, and from his view it may have looked like something lay over to the west, as far as I know there was no trail leading to the left and what trail there was, was followed by Custer.
Ian.
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Post by fred on Mar 25, 2014 13:47:52 GMT -6
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