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Post by quincannon on Jan 28, 2014 11:57:04 GMT -6
Alan: Leavenworth has constructed a staff ride for LBH and I think it is done every other year. I have seen a bootlegged copy of it that the 3rd Armored Cavalry adopted as a squadron level exercise and it is quite extensive. Never have seen the original but it does exist, and there is a fellow at Leavenworth a civilian who is quite up to speed on LBH, but strictly from the tactical perspective. I can tell you that the staff ride has Custer going onto the bluffs, proceeding down Cedar Coulee, up onto L-N-C Ridge complex, then going to Ford B, withdrawing to battle ridge and then proceeding north with Yates to the vicinity of Cemetery Ridge, while leaving Keogh back in the Calhoun Hill area. Essentially the same scenario that Fred presents in his book and the conventional wisdom for the last sixty or so years.
To my knowledge no Leavenworth Paper have been published like the one you referred to about Dragon Rouge.
The difference in what they do at Leavenworth and what Fred refers to is that at Leavenworth they concentrate solely on tactics and the logistical aspects of the battle, as is their charter, and not tell a story meant for the consumer of history. In short you will find no Reno drunkenness, no eternal timbertripe, the Benteen dawdle, or Weir having the hots for Madam Fluffy.. Just bare bones tactical analysis.
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Post by fred on Jan 28, 2014 13:25:16 GMT -6
The difference in what they do at Leavenworth and what Fred refers to is that at Leavenworth they concentrate solely on tactics and the logistical aspects of the battle, as is their charter, and not tell a story meant for the consumer of history. In short you will find no Reno drunkenness, no eternal timbertripe, the Benteen dawdle, or Weir having the hots for Madam Fluffy.. Just bare bones tactical analysis. Which is exactly the way it should be. Best wishes, Fred.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jan 28, 2014 13:36:48 GMT -6
I agree, it would sure make the whole thing more clearer which is the way that I view it, the rumours of Reno being boozed up in the valley has never made any difference to me, he could have been a lifelong member of the temperance society and still it wouldn’t have changed things as he was forced to fight on a piece of scrub land bordered by trees and a river, and don’t forget that in his mind there were another eight Companies of troops still active in that area (not counting the train) and he may have thought that a least some of them may show their faces at some point.
Ian.
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alan
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Post by alan on Jan 28, 2014 16:08:31 GMT -6
Quincannon,
If your do a google search under Fort Leavenworth, Operation Dragon Rouge, the search will bring up the PDF file for the following:
Dragon Operations: Hostage Rescues in the Congo by Major Thomas Odom. Combat Studies Institute, U.S. Army Command and General Staff College. 238 pages.
Van Taylor,
Not to mention Reno getting a face full of blood/brains when the guy next to him received a head shot. Bound to cloud your ability to make a rational decision when combined with the stress of combat.
Fred,
Thank you for showing the preliminary table of contents for your book. I hope the publisher does not attempt to cut the number of charts (maps). It is a pet peeve of mine that many history ("military" or otherwise) books on battles do not include enough maps. Then I found out from the author's websites that it was the publisher cutting out the maps prior to publishing. So stand your ground regarding the need for the maps to be included to assist the readers of your book.
I also like that your planned book keeps a concentrated look at the day of battle and does not, like other books, spend half the book giving a general outline of the entire campaign, talking about how President Grant was pissed off at Custer, etc.
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Post by quincannon on Jan 28, 2014 16:42:53 GMT -6
Alan I did not make myself clear with what I said about Dragon Rouge. I have a copy. My meaning was that no Leavenworth Paper has been published on LBH to my knowledge like the one they published on Dragon Rouge. They did an LP on Tank Destroyer doctrine in WWII that is a particular favorite of mine, and one on the Lebanon incursion in the late 50's as well.
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jan 29, 2014 3:25:53 GMT -6
Van Taylor?
Never mind Alan, but at least you used capitols and left a gap between my names, not like another person who posts here infrequently and has known me for three years.
Yes copping a load of brain matter would have an effect your judgement, but I wonder at this point had Reno realised that no help was coming and was about to plan a break out.
Ian.
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alan
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Post by alan on Jan 29, 2014 8:42:42 GMT -6
Ian,
I agree that Reno had already decided to abandon the position in the trees. The whole time he was under fire in the trees, he was thinking where is the support that Custer said he would provide? The facial bloodbath may have caused him to order the dismount (as a kind of panic reaction), then he almost immediately ordered a remount. His mind was likely in hyper mode by then. Bouncing from "should I do this?" or "should I do that?" Command decisions under the stress of combat has been an element of armed conflict since caveman fought caveman over a watering hole.
Alan
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Post by Yan Taylor on Jan 29, 2014 9:03:58 GMT -6
Hello Alan, yes he was under stress and who could blame him, but some put this down to him being drunk, but what Chuck, Fred and I are saying is that it would be good to look at it from the tactical analysis side.
As soon as the Indians got round his left flank Reno was on the back foot, he needed support right there and then, he had done his bit out there on the valley floor and now he needed help, as I said yesterday there were two Combat Battalions in the area and I suspect that Reno felt that he was left out on a limb.
Ian.
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