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Post by alfakilo on Mar 6, 2013 8:35:17 GMT -6
I also belive that Custers goal or intent at the LBH was the same as the Washita to ride in and shoot down everything in sight. "Porter, their is a large village ahead and there will be a great killing" I never meant to imply that he was going to use the same tactics in order to achieve it, or that the situation at both places were the same. I tend to agree with you on this. I think Custer may have had two assumptions going into this...one, that Indians generally run from a fight, and two, warriors will stop fighting if their families are threatened or captured. He may have thought that these were demonstrated at Washita and would work again at LBH. The one lesson he didn't appear to learn well enough was the need to adequately recon the area...however, we seem to have sufficient accounts that Custer was repeatedly advised that the size of the Indian village was too big. Maybe 'adequate recon' had to be defined as sufficient to get through his thick head! So...different tactics but same general strategy. AK
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 6, 2013 9:32:57 GMT -6
Big Village --- Benteen you were right we should not have split up
AZ Ranger
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Post by wild on Mar 6, 2013 10:19:11 GMT -6
AZ Big Village --- Benteen you were right we should not have split up Agreed And far from "big village" being unnecessary as someone stated it was essential.It screamed this is not the Washita.Different game on here.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 6, 2013 10:56:36 GMT -6
Steve: That is the answer to my question, the importance of the two words Big Village. It goes to mind set, It goes to the realization of a mistake, and as you say it also admits fault, an admission probably only Benteen would understand, That is the rreason I put the question out there because it was only recently that I read all three of these meaning into the two words "Big Village"
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Post by quincannon on Mar 6, 2013 11:47:32 GMT -6
AK and Dan: I propose a compromise as follows. I think it will set everyone back on the right track so that we may mutually understand meaning and intent. I will divide this in three parts. The first two were identical in every way to Washita and every other large scale confrontation with indians that I can recall. The third stands alone as a tactical solution unique to the probem at hand.
1. The STRATEGY was to use what means available to remove or greatly mitigate conflict on the plains to facilitate westward expansion.
2. The OPERATIONAL METHOD was one used in the past, attack the village, knowing that the village was the tribal center of gravity, and without the village structure large bodies of hostile indians, were incapable of waging war.
The TACTICAL SOLUTION then was a unique application of the operational method, that differed from encounter to encounter, no two being exactly alike..
LATE ADDITION FOR DAN The choice of tactics are all based upon the factors of METT-TC and expression not used then, but practiced none the less.
Mission-Enemy-Terrain-Troops Available---Time Available-Civilian Considerations.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 6, 2013 11:55:20 GMT -6
To me the "Big village" meant nothing more than Custer knew where it was and Benteen didn't. To take it out of context is risking problems in interpretation.
Thought I'd toss that out. c.
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Post by alfakilo on Mar 6, 2013 12:26:03 GMT -6
AK and Dan: I propose a compromise as follows. I think it will set everyone back on the right track so that we may mutually understand meaning and intent. Works for me. I like it. AK
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Post by quincannon on Mar 6, 2013 12:30:26 GMT -6
AK: One of the things that is frequently done here and just about everywhere else is the misuse, or the intermingling of the words strategy and tactics. No one outside the military ever uses Operational Method. I think it important to differentiate for the sake of clarity. Glad you agree.
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Post by AZ Ranger on Mar 6, 2013 12:39:38 GMT -6
Since there is no direction to Big Village given than leaving it out has the same meaning of what Benteen is suppose to do. It was added for a reason other than come on, be quick, and bring packs.
That's my thought anyway.
Regards
AZ Ranger
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Post by alfakilo on Mar 6, 2013 12:43:21 GMT -6
AK: ONe of the things that is frequently done here and just about everywhere else is the misuse, or the intermingling of the words strategy and tactics. No one outside the military ever uses Operational Method. I think it important to differentiate for the sake of clarity. Glad you agree. I do agree. I think your expansion of the discussion allows folks to see the difference between the forest and the trees. AK
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Post by quincannon on Mar 6, 2013 12:52:35 GMT -6
Well that was not my original intent by asking the question about the insertion of the two words. My intent was to point out these two words indicated a change in thought process, a before and after so to speak. The fact that we must return once again to deliniate the three levels of war, serves a purpose. Without this knowledge of how the three levels are different in planning and application, I don't think anyone can key in on the details. It is like trying to learn to ride a bicycle without a bicycle.
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Post by alfakilo on Mar 6, 2013 13:01:13 GMT -6
Well that was not my original intent by asking the question about the insertion of the two words. My intent was to point out these two words indicated a change in thought process, a before and after so to speak. Understand. I was only referring to your addition of the words 'Operational Method' to help differentiate between tactics and strategy. AK
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Post by quincannon on Mar 6, 2013 13:09:36 GMT -6
Yes, I thought you did. The sentence was added to denote a departure from the original subject of the two words Big Village.
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Post by Gatewood on Mar 6, 2013 13:12:58 GMT -6
Let me take another stab at it and change my interpretation of Benteen's mission. I said yesterday that I didn't think it was to head off any Indians that were escaping around the left flank as much as to engage any that might already be there and keep them from interfering with the attack on the village.
I still think that to be the case in a sense, but have developed a somewhat different view as well. It goes back to Terry's instructions to Custer of "...feeling constantly, however, to your left, so as to preclude the escape of the Indians passing around your left flank", and the interpretation that you place upon that. I think that many tend to focus upon the term "escape" and interpret Benteen's mission as being to head off any Indians escaping from "the battle". However, when you read Terry's comment in it's entirety, I believe that what he is saying is to feel to the left along the line of march in order to preclude Indians from escaping from the "closing trap" prior to an actual battle. As Custer was closing in on the village from the east, he knew that Gibbon was to the north so any possible Indian escape or "movement" would have to be to the west or south. Of the two, following the LBH valley to the south was the most likely route for the Indians to follow, and he (Custer) couldn't do anything about the west anyway, so, in keeping with Terry's instructions to "feel" to the left, he sent Benteen to deal with any Indians that might be moving that way.
However, Benteen didn't find the LBH valley going south but kept encountering other ridges and valleys, so he turned back and said that he knew that the Indians would have easier routes to take than what he was encountering. That reinforces the notion that his mission was to stop any that were "moving" south away from the village.
Now, to get back to Custer and the "big village" notation, it seems plausible that he was indicating to Benteen that he should stop worrying about any Indians escaping "the trap" and hustle along, as there were more than enough right here to worry about.
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Post by quincannon on Mar 6, 2013 13:24:47 GMT -6
Gatewood: Very hard to disagree, so I will not.
Now let me pose another question to you. Assuming that Benteen was out there to "feel to the left", and for the very reason you state, was Custer paying lip service to Terry's order? Was there an opportunity to "feel to the left" before this occasion, and this is but one such event of perhaps several that should have been conducted? And finally would the discovery of indians "escaping" or any discriptive word you wish to apply, not have been prime evidence that the anticipated trap had been revealed and already tripped?
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